Animal Welfare Professionals

Mary,

If it is true it is very disturbing. However, ASPCA also did a rehabilitation study of 441 dogs and came up with a protocol for fearful dogs. I read the study when it first came out but will need to refresh my memory again. I would try to confirm either way. You mention "dangerous" dog. I would like to know what is the definition of a dangerous dog. I would tend to agree that dogs that have a Dunbar bite scale of 5/6 might fit in that category but I generalize here. Dogs bite for all kinds of reasons with the most common being fear and pain. How about a redirect bite? As a trainer, I am comfortable working with bite scale 2/3 and even a 4 in special circumstances.  Here is the link to that study https://iaabcjournal.org/aspca-interview/

This won't be a popular take but....I'm old enough to own it.  The ASPCA is right to start this convo. 

Making hard decisions requires good evals -- ideally breed-sensitive ones because Pit Bulls "read" really differently than German Shepherds or Yorkshire Terriers, and some shelter staff really don't know the difference.  I've seen some TERRIBLE calls by shelter evaluators who confused situational excitement with "aggression" or breed-appropriate aloofness/suspicion with "fear."  So it's critical to get knowledgeable folks who understand what they're seeing, and most shelter folks where I am are pretty clueless -- making bad calls to euthanize dogs who really have no issues.

On the other end, many rescues are making bad calls in the other direction.   When I was new to dog rescue and volunteering in a high-kill shelter to work with one breed, I thought they all deserved to be saved. Now that I've been doing this for a long time, I don't.   I've told many young, enthusiastic wannabe rescuers that you learn the reality of rescue when you have to sit sobbing at a vet clinic holding a dog while it's put to sleep because it is too dangerous to be out in the community.   Everyone I know who's been doing this a lot of years has been there if they're honest about assessments and care about good adoptions, liability, and credibility.  Once you've had to be the one sitting with a dog YOU pulled out of a shelter and failed to rehabilitate enough to be safely adopted, you will realize how much temperament matters.  

For those who are saying "but if you do XYZ, you can fix them....," please know this:   I've spent vast amounts of dollars on board-certified vet behaviorist consultations (even traveling to a vet school to consult with one for a foster dog), tried all of the vet prescribed meds and counter-conditioning exercises, have worked with an array of truly great trainers with multiple modalities...and seen it accomplish absolutely nothing but offer better management tools.  None of it overrides a defective base temperament in my breed.  The vet behaviorist was very honest with me when a dog would never be adoptable and would be dangerous if not managed very carefully, for the rest of his life.   For a foster who doesn't want this dog forever, the ethical thing was to make the hard call.  

What I learned from all those experiences is that all that money spent on vet behaviorist consultations and trainers could have been spent to so much better effect on other dogs with great temperaments and expensive ortho  or other medical needs.  Live and learn.   Now our mantra is temperament about all else--too many dogs need our help, so we prioritize the fabulous temperaments.

In the South or in Texas or other states where the number of dogs in need vastly outnumber the available rescue and transport resources, it really doesn't make sense to  put scarce resources into dogs with super-sketchy temperaments, and especially warehousing dogs in foster homes for 6-12 months to try to rehabilitate human aggression or fear biting.   In these places, every kennel or foster space taken up by an unadoptable  "rehab" dog means that other adoptable dogs with great temperaments are at risk of getting put to sleep because that space is full.   How many really good dogs have to get put down while resources are put into trying to rehab a fear-biter?  How many homes are there that want to adopt a fear-biter that has to be "managed"?  

I'll go to the mat to fight on behalf of dogs with great temperaments --- old, injured, sick....if the temperament is there.   Heartworms can be fixed.  Bones can be set.  Surgery can do amazing things.    But the genetics are what they are, at least in the breed I work with.  We can give a dog coping strategies, put OB on it, teach people to recognize the signs, etc. but faulty genetics can't be corrected, only managed.   I believe in being totally truthful with adopters -- even a redirected bite breaking up a dog fight will be disclosed in writing (and that one I don't blame the dog for).   But unprovoked bites of strangers, handler aggression, and fear biting generally are really serious in my breed because it's big and powerful.  Big dogs that take multiple hard strikes in response to fearful stimuli are going to hurt someone eventually, and dogs engaging in stalking-predatory behavior of small kids are simply a community menace.  I've seen both in other rescues and shelter-fostered dogs in the hands of newbie young fosters who don't know what they're seeing.   Those dogs are ticking time bombs until they hurt a human, badly. 

The rescue world needs to come to terms with the fact that nobody wants to adopt a dog that has to be "managed" for life to keep it from mauling neighbor kids, houseguests, or the mailman--or coming up the leash at your face if it doesn't like your leash handling.      I know folks who say they'll never adopt another rescue animal because "certain people" (not me) adopted out a dog that shouldn't have ever been placed with them.   It's all because the people doing it refused to make a hard, painful decision to euthanize--selfishly transferring the pain of the euthanasia decision to the adopters after the inevitable bite.

So we have to try do our best on the front end, prioritizing the dogs who have the best chance of being outstanding pets.

Add to this:  most commercial liability insurers will not place coverage for rescues that adopt out dogs with bite histories.  Small rescues that do it are either uninsured or lying to their insurance company, I would guess.  I have no idea about shelters.  

But I will also say for the record that we should NOT trust ASPCA Pro's statistical evaluations of anything.  I've busted one of their statisticians committing egregious errors by cherry-picking data (data selection bias) and massaging it to get the result they want, but she ignored my comments on her blog.   I would  not make policy decisions based on their statistical studies because they seem make the studies fit whatever they want to recommend.

Mary,

If it is true it is very disturbing. However, ASPCA also did a rehabilitation study of 441 dogs and came up with a protocol for fearful dogs. I read the study when it first came out but will need to refresh my memory again. I would try to confirm either way. You mention "dangerous" dog. I would like to know what is the definition of a dangerous dog. I would tend to agree that dogs that have a Dunbar bite scale of 5/6 might fit in that category but I generalize here. Dogs bite for all kinds of reasons with the most common being fear and pain. How about a redirect bite? As a trainer, I am comfortable working with bite scale 2/3 and even a 4 in special circumstances.  Here is the link to that study https://iaabcjournal.org/aspca-interview/

This won't be a popular take but....I'm old enough to own it.  The ASPCA is right to start this convo. 

Making hard decisions requires good evals -- ideally breed-sensitive ones because Pit Bulls "read" really differently than German Shepherds or Yorkshire Terriers, and some shelter staff really don't know the difference.  I've seen some TERRIBLE calls by shelter evaluators who confused situational excitement with "aggression" or breed-appropriate aloofness/suspicion with "fear."  So it's critical to get knowledgeable folks who understand what they're seeing, and most shelter folks where I am are pretty clueless -- making bad calls to euthanize dogs who really have no issues.

On the other end, many rescues are making bad calls in the other direction.   When I was new to dog rescue and volunteering in a high-kill shelter to work with one breed, I thought they all deserved to be saved. Now that I've been doing this for a long time, I don't.   I've told many young, enthusiastic wannabe rescuers that you learn the reality of rescue when you have to sit sobbing at a vet clinic holding a dog while it's put to sleep because it is too dangerous to be out in the community.   Everyone I know who's been doing this a lot of years has been there if they're honest about assessments and care about good adoptions, liability, and credibility.  Once you've had to be the one sitting with a dog YOU pulled out of a shelter and failed to rehabilitate enough to be safely adopted, you will realize how much temperament matters.  

For those who are saying "but if you do XYZ, you can fix them....," please know this:   I've spent vast amounts of dollars on board-certified vet behaviorist consultations (even traveling to a vet school to consult with one for a foster dog), tried all of the vet prescribed meds and counter-conditioning exercises, have worked with an array of truly great trainers with multiple modalities...and seen it accomplish absolutely nothing but offer better management tools.  None of it overrides a defective base temperament in my breed.  The vet behaviorist was very honest with me when a dog would never be adoptable and would be dangerous if not managed very carefully, for the rest of his life.   For a foster who doesn't want this dog forever, the ethical thing was to make the hard call.  

What I learned from all those experiences is that all that money spent on vet behaviorist consultations and trainers could have been spent to so much better effect on other dogs with great temperaments and expensive ortho  or other medical needs.  Live and learn.   Now our mantra is temperament about all else--too many dogs need our help, so we prioritize the fabulous temperaments.

In the South or in Texas or other states where the number of dogs in need vastly outnumber the available rescue and transport resources, it really doesn't make sense to  put scarce resources into dogs with super-sketchy temperaments, and especially warehousing dogs in foster homes for 6-12 months to try to rehabilitate human aggression or fear biting.   In these places, every kennel or foster space taken up by an unadoptable  "rehab" dog means that other adoptable dogs with great temperaments are at risk of getting put to sleep because that space is full.   How many really good dogs have to get put down while resources are put into trying to rehab a fear-biter?  How many homes are there that want to adopt a fear-biter that has to be "managed"?  

I'll go to the mat to fight on behalf of dogs with great temperaments --- old, injured, sick....if the temperament is there.   Heartworms can be fixed.  Bones can be set.  Surgery can do amazing things.    But the genetics are what they are, at least in the breed I work with.  We can give a dog coping strategies, put OB on it, teach people to recognize the signs, etc. but faulty genetics can't be corrected, only managed.   I believe in being totally truthful with adopters -- even a redirected bite breaking up a dog fight will be disclosed in writing (and that one I don't blame the dog for).   But unprovoked bites of strangers, handler aggression, and fear biting generally are really serious in my breed because it's big and powerful.  Big dogs that take multiple hard strikes in response to fearful stimuli are going to hurt someone eventually, and dogs engaging in stalking-predatory behavior of small kids are simply a community menace.  I've seen both in other rescues and shelter-fostered dogs in the hands of newbie young fosters who don't know what they're seeing.   Those dogs are ticking time bombs until they hurt a human, badly. 

The rescue world needs to come to terms with the fact that nobody wants to adopt a dog that has to be "managed" for life to keep it from mauling neighbor kids, houseguests, or the mailman--or coming up the leash at your face if it doesn't like your leash handling.      I know folks who say they'll never adopt another rescue animal because "certain people" (not me) adopted out a dog that shouldn't have ever been placed with them.   It's all because the people doing it refused to make a hard, painful decision to euthanize--selfishly transferring the pain of the euthanasia decision to the adopters after the inevitable bite.

So we have to try do our best on the front end, prioritizing the dogs who have the best chance of being outstanding pets.

Add to this:  most commercial liability insurers will not place coverage for rescues that adopt out dogs with bite histories.  Small rescues that do it are either uninsured or lying to their insurance company, I would guess.  I have no idea about shelters.  

But I will also say for the record that we should NOT trust ASPCA Pro's statistical evaluations of anything.  I've busted one of their statisticians committing egregious errors by cherry-picking data (data selection bias) and massaging it to get the result they want, but she ignored my comments on her blog.   I would  not make policy decisions based on their statistical studies because they seem make the studies fit whatever they want to recommend.

Mary,

If it is true it is very disturbing. However, ASPCA also did a rehabilitation study of 441 dogs and came up with a protocol for fearful dogs. I read the study when it first came out but will need to refresh my memory again. I would try to confirm either way. You mention "dangerous" dog. I would like to know what is the definition of a dangerous dog. I would tend to agree that dogs that have a Dunbar bite scale of 5/6 might fit in that category but I generalize here. Dogs bite for all kinds of reasons with the most common being fear and pain. How about a redirect bite? As a trainer, I am comfortable working with bite scale 2/3 and even a 4 in special circumstances.  Here is the link to that study https://iaabcjournal.org/aspca-interview/

This won't be a popular take but....I'm old enough to own it.  The ASPCA is right to start this convo. 

Making hard decisions requires good evals -- ideally breed-sensitive ones because Pit Bulls "read" really differently than German Shepherds or Yorkshire Terriers, and some shelter staff really don't know the difference.  I've seen some TERRIBLE calls by shelter evaluators who confused situational excitement with "aggression" or breed-appropriate aloofness/suspicion with "fear."  So it's critical to get knowledgeable folks who understand what they're seeing, and most shelter folks where I am are pretty clueless -- making bad calls to euthanize dogs who really have no issues.

On the other end, many rescues are making bad calls in the other direction.   When I was new to dog rescue and volunteering in a high-kill shelter to work with one breed, I thought they all deserved to be saved. Now that I've been doing this for a long time, I don't.   I've told many young, enthusiastic wannabe rescuers that you learn the reality of rescue when you have to sit sobbing at a vet clinic holding a dog while it's put to sleep because it is too dangerous to be out in the community.   Everyone I know who's been doing this a lot of years has been there if they're honest about assessments and care about good adoptions, liability, and credibility.  Once you've had to be the one sitting with a dog YOU pulled out of a shelter and failed to rehabilitate enough to be safely adopted, you will realize how much temperament matters.  

For those who are saying "but if you do XYZ, you can fix them....," please know this:   I've spent vast amounts of dollars on board-certified vet behaviorist consultations (even traveling to a vet school to consult with one for a foster dog), tried all of the vet prescribed meds and counter-conditioning exercises, have worked with an array of truly great trainers with multiple modalities...and seen it accomplish absolutely nothing but offer better management tools.  None of it overrides a defective base temperament in my breed.  The vet behaviorist was very honest with me when a dog would never be adoptable and would be dangerous if not managed very carefully, for the rest of his life.   For a foster who doesn't want this dog forever, the ethical thing was to make the hard call.  

What I learned from all those experiences is that all that money spent on vet behaviorist consultations and trainers could have been spent to so much better effect on other dogs with great temperaments and expensive ortho  or other medical needs.  Live and learn.   Now our mantra is temperament about all else--too many dogs need our help, so we prioritize the fabulous temperaments.

In the South or in Texas or other states where the number of dogs in need vastly outnumber the available rescue and transport resources, it really doesn't make sense to  put scarce resources into dogs with super-sketchy temperaments, and especially warehousing dogs in foster homes for 6-12 months to try to rehabilitate human aggression or fear biting.   In these places, every kennel or foster space taken up by an unadoptable  "rehab" dog means that other adoptable dogs with great temperaments are at risk of getting put to sleep because that space is full.   How many really good dogs have to get put down while resources are put into trying to rehab a fear-biter?  How many homes are there that want to adopt a fear-biter that has to be "managed"?  

I'll go to the mat to fight on behalf of dogs with great temperaments --- old, injured, sick....if the temperament is there.   Heartworms can be fixed.  Bones can be set.  Surgery can do amazing things.    But the genetics are what they are, at least in the breed I work with.  We can give a dog coping strategies, put OB on it, teach people to recognize the signs, etc. but faulty genetics can't be corrected, only managed.   I believe in being totally truthful with adopters -- even a redirected bite breaking up a dog fight will be disclosed in writing (and that one I don't blame the dog for).   But unprovoked bites of strangers, handler aggression, and fear biting generally are really serious in my breed because it's big and powerful.  Big dogs that take multiple hard strikes in response to fearful stimuli are going to hurt someone eventually, and dogs engaging in stalking-predatory behavior of small kids are simply a community menace.  I've seen both in other rescues and shelter-fostered dogs in the hands of newbie young fosters who don't know what they're seeing.   Those dogs are ticking time bombs until they hurt a human, badly. 

The rescue world needs to come to terms with the fact that nobody wants to adopt a dog that has to be "managed" for life to keep it from mauling neighbor kids, houseguests, or the mailman--or coming up the leash at your face if it doesn't like your leash handling.      I know folks who say they'll never adopt another rescue animal because "certain people" (not me) adopted out a dog that shouldn't have ever been placed with them.   It's all because the people doing it refused to make a hard, painful decision to euthanize--selfishly transferring the pain of the euthanasia decision to the adopters after the inevitable bite.

So we have to try do our best on the front end, prioritizing the dogs who have the best chance of being outstanding pets.

Add to this:  most commercial liability insurers will not place coverage for rescues that adopt out dogs with bite histories.  Small rescues that do it are either uninsured or lying to their insurance company, I would guess.  I have no idea about shelters.  

But I will also say for the record that we should NOT trust ASPCA Pro's statistical evaluations of anything.  I've busted one of their statisticians committing egregious errors by cherry-picking data (data selection bias) and massaging it to get the result they want, but she ignored my comments on her blog.   I would  not make policy decisions based on their statistical studies because they seem make the studies fit whatever they want to recommend.

Mary,

If it is true it is very disturbing. However, ASPCA also did a rehabilitation study of 441 dogs and came up with a protocol for fearful dogs. I read the study when it first came out but will need to refresh my memory again. I would try to confirm either way. You mention "dangerous" dog. I would like to know what is the definition of a dangerous dog. I would tend to agree that dogs that have a Dunbar bite scale of 5/6 might fit in that category but I generalize here. Dogs bite for all kinds of reasons with the most common being fear and pain. How about a redirect bite? As a trainer, I am comfortable working with bite scale 2/3 and even a 4 in special circumstances.  Here is the link to that study https://iaabcjournal.org/aspca-interview/

Mary,

If it is true it is very disturbing. However, ASPCA also did a rehabilitation study of 441 dogs and came up with a protocol for fearful dogs. I read the study when it first came out but will need to refresh my memory again. I would try to confirm either way. You mention "dangerous" dog. I would like to know what is the definition of a dangerous dog. I would tend to agree that dogs that have a Dunbar bite scale of 5/6 might fit in that category but I generalize here. Dogs bite for all kinds of reasons with the most common being fear and pain. How about a redirect bite? As a trainer, I am comfortable working with bite scale 2/3 and even a 4 in special circumstances.  Here is the link to that study https://iaabcjournal.org/aspca-interview/

I was at the conference and I listened to the address and that was not my takeaway.  

He talked about the ASPCA's own experience and that when they made a deliberate decision to focus on special needs dogs they had a discussion with the board about the fact that the euthanasia rate may increase as a result of this new direction. He said the board had to grapple with whether or not to turn away from doing a necessary thing because the numbers were more important than filling a particular need.  

He did not say he thought the euthanasia rates should increase.

I was not there, but listened to another trainer, Kelley Bollen talk about something along the same lines.  I did not find it disturbing, but truthful.  The jist of the is that we have a duty to our adopters and to the dogs.  We cannot afford to misrepresent these dogs and put them into a home where they will fail and possibly hurt, maim or kill someone.  If that keeps happening, people will turn away from shelters and go back to the puppy mills and backyard breeders.  We HAVE to be able to give our adopters the PET they are seeking and not a project that could be dangerous to their family.

#AccesstoCare
#AdmissionsandIntake(includingIntake-to-placement)
#AdoptionsandAdoptionPrograms
#Behavior,TrainingandEnrichment
#CommunityPartnerships*
#FieldServicesandPublicSafety*
#PetSupportServices*
#Rehoming

------------------------------
Mary Lou Maraganis
President
Animal Rescue Konnection
Gloucester MA
------------------------------

An article circulated not long ago that my staff found very helpful in understanding the implications of our decisions. I would like to preface with,  we are the only shelter in our area that behaviorally evaluates dogs.  It is a guide, not a line in the sand,  and we take into consideration the experience of the finder and staff,  but some things (short warnings and bites) do have hard lines.  Here is the article.  I hope others find it insightful. 

https://www.shelterbehaviorhub.com/blog/the-perils-of-placing-marginal-dogs

Thank you for this article

An article circulated not long ago that my staff found very helpful in understanding the implications of our decisions. I would like to preface with,  we are the only shelter in our area that behaviorally evaluates dogs.  It is a guide, not a line in the sand,  and we take into consideration the experience of the finder and staff,  but some things (short warnings and bites) do have hard lines.  Here is the article.  I hope others find it insightful. 

https://www.shelterbehaviorhub.com/blog/the-perils-of-placing-marginal-dogs

I was at the conference, and my takeaway from Matt's talk was that we should be talking about behavior euthanasia in the same way we might talk about medical euthanasia. One has stigma attached to it and the other is taken as a professional evaluation of the health of the animal. My understanding of what he was saying was that they should both be openly and professionally discussed because both affect the quality of life of the pet and the safety of the community, and they both are reliant on the resources within the shelter.

They mentioned that they will release the recordings of the talks within a few months. Hope this helps!

thank you this is most helpful. if the recording is released would love you to post or forward to me.  thank you~~

I was at the conference, and my takeaway from Matt's talk was that we should be talking about behavior euthanasia in the same way we might talk about medical euthanasia. One has stigma attached to it and the other is taken as a professional evaluation of the health of the animal. My understanding of what he was saying was that they should both be openly and professionally discussed because both affect the quality of life of the pet and the safety of the community, and they both are reliant on the resources within the shelter.

They mentioned that they will release the recordings of the talks within a few months. Hope this helps!

It's definitely hard to believe that a dog is better euthanized but when a dog is made to live in a cage and not get adopted their spirits break.  They get cage crazy and we all know that dogs need attention and more attention than a bowl of food and seeing people a few minutes a day.  I hate that a dog gets put down but I truly believe their spirits can not takes years in a kennel

thank you this is most helpful. if the recording is released would love you to post or forward to me.  thank you~~

I was at the conference, and my takeaway from Matt's talk was that we should be talking about behavior euthanasia in the same way we might talk about medical euthanasia. One has stigma attached to it and the other is taken as a professional evaluation of the health of the animal. My understanding of what he was saying was that they should both be openly and professionally discussed because both affect the quality of life of the pet and the safety of the community, and they both are reliant on the resources within the shelter.

They mentioned that they will release the recordings of the talks within a few months. Hope this helps!

I was not at the conference, but two of our team members attended.  I think that this conversation is one that is important to have!  We are seeing higher populations/longer lengths of stays in many shelters across the country, as well as challenges with hiring and retaining staff.  In my opinion, and I would love to continue to see more data to help further shape my opinion with data, we are facing capacity for care issues in a large number of shelters, and we are starting to really see/feel the repercussions of overextending ourselves and our teams.  

I would love to see more shelters who have the space and staffing levels they need to meet their community's needs, but in my experience, most are undersized and understaffed to meet the needs in such a way that they are staying within their true capacity to provide quality care.  Those who come into this industry do so to help save lives and have a positive impact, which lends to us overextending ourselves, and wanting to do so to ensure that greater impact.  At some point we will all hit a wall, many are resilient and have a "slump" and bounce back, but others are not, and quality people end up leaving the industry all together.

We are seeing many organizations, mine included, that are having to make some very difficult decisions that we have not had to even consider for several years, on a daily basis.  What is the answer?  Do we keep the behavior dogs and euthanize the sick/injured, is it a combination of both, there isn't a specific formula that will work for everyone, but I think discussing the decision-making process is important and it is important that we not villainize those who are having to make these decisions. 

Now that I have gone off on a total tangent, which is not so much about increasing behavior euthanasia, but discussing our current situations and how we can/are making these decisions when they are necessary, I would love to hear other thoughts! 

Thank you for sharing that article @Julielani Chang, I am looking forward to reading over it. 

I hope everyone has a fantastic weekend, and happy Friday! 

Hi, thank you for the discussion.

Can you  please talk to your two staffers that went to the conference and let us know what they heard-what their take- a -way was from the keynote?

If anyone is monitoring this with Maddie's Fund.  This looks to be a significant need for a webinar on this. Maybe multiple webinars breaking down the different components. Would love to have a panel that is actually doing something to address the 1) increased intake 2)behavioral issues (so many shelters still euthanize within a few weeks -even a few days for owner surrenders and after the required hold time for strays. 3) addressing the local needs in your state/community.

Not a webinar on the challenges(we all know that) one with organizations that actually run successful  programs  that can be replicated. In MA we have so many organizations transporting in, which is fine, but ignoring the need in our own back door, which is not fine.  The need is addressing behavioral issues dogs are manifesting-whether from shelter stress or poor/no training v. aggression. most behavioral issues seem to be labored aggressive-therefore unadoptable -therefore euthanized.  Still touting they are No Kil because they do not euthanize adoptable dogs.   Maddie, would love a webinar that speaks the real truth of what should and can be done by showcasing successful programs throughout the country.

I was not at the conference, but two of our team members attended.  I think that this conversation is one that is important to have!  We are seeing higher populations/longer lengths of stays in many shelters across the country, as well as challenges with hiring and retaining staff.  In my opinion, and I would love to continue to see more data to help further shape my opinion with data, we are facing capacity for care issues in a large number of shelters, and we are starting to really see/feel the repercussions of overextending ourselves and our teams.  

I would love to see more shelters who have the space and staffing levels they need to meet their community's needs, but in my experience, most are undersized and understaffed to meet the needs in such a way that they are staying within their true capacity to provide quality care.  Those who come into this industry do so to help save lives and have a positive impact, which lends to us overextending ourselves, and wanting to do so to ensure that greater impact.  At some point we will all hit a wall, many are resilient and have a "slump" and bounce back, but others are not, and quality people end up leaving the industry all together.

We are seeing many organizations, mine included, that are having to make some very difficult decisions that we have not had to even consider for several years, on a daily basis.  What is the answer?  Do we keep the behavior dogs and euthanize the sick/injured, is it a combination of both, there isn't a specific formula that will work for everyone, but I think discussing the decision-making process is important and it is important that we not villainize those who are having to make these decisions. 

Now that I have gone off on a total tangent, which is not so much about increasing behavior euthanasia, but discussing our current situations and how we can/are making these decisions when they are necessary, I would love to hear other thoughts! 

Thank you for sharing that article @Julielani Chang, I am looking forward to reading over it. 

I hope everyone has a fantastic weekend, and happy Friday! 

Hi Mary Lou, 

Thank you for starting this discussion on an important topic that touches all of us. I appreciate your recommendations for future webcasts/panels and have shared your comments above with our Education team.

For your immediate use, the team has compiled an extensive list of 25 past conference recordings and webcasts on Increased Intake, Behavioral Issues and Organizations with Successful Programs that I've attached to this post. The attachment also lists 3 upcoming Fall webcasts on related topics. 

I hope these resources are helpful. Thank you again for starting this conversation! 

Hi, thank you for the discussion.

Can you  please talk to your two staffers that went to the conference and let us know what they heard-what their take- a -way was from the keynote?

If anyone is monitoring this with Maddie's Fund.  This looks to be a significant need for a webinar on this. Maybe multiple webinars breaking down the different components. Would love to have a panel that is actually doing something to address the 1) increased intake 2)behavioral issues (so many shelters still euthanize within a few weeks -even a few days for owner surrenders and after the required hold time for strays. 3) addressing the local needs in your state/community.

Not a webinar on the challenges(we all know that) one with organizations that actually run successful  programs  that can be replicated. In MA we have so many organizations transporting in, which is fine, but ignoring the need in our own back door, which is not fine.  The need is addressing behavioral issues dogs are manifesting-whether from shelter stress or poor/no training v. aggression. most behavioral issues seem to be labored aggressive-therefore unadoptable -therefore euthanized.  Still touting they are No Kil because they do not euthanize adoptable dogs.   Maddie, would love a webinar that speaks the real truth of what should and can be done by showcasing successful programs throughout the country.

I was not at the conference, but two of our team members attended.  I think that this conversation is one that is important to have!  We are seeing higher populations/longer lengths of stays in many shelters across the country, as well as challenges with hiring and retaining staff.  In my opinion, and I would love to continue to see more data to help further shape my opinion with data, we are facing capacity for care issues in a large number of shelters, and we are starting to really see/feel the repercussions of overextending ourselves and our teams.  

I would love to see more shelters who have the space and staffing levels they need to meet their community's needs, but in my experience, most are undersized and understaffed to meet the needs in such a way that they are staying within their true capacity to provide quality care.  Those who come into this industry do so to help save lives and have a positive impact, which lends to us overextending ourselves, and wanting to do so to ensure that greater impact.  At some point we will all hit a wall, many are resilient and have a "slump" and bounce back, but others are not, and quality people end up leaving the industry all together.

We are seeing many organizations, mine included, that are having to make some very difficult decisions that we have not had to even consider for several years, on a daily basis.  What is the answer?  Do we keep the behavior dogs and euthanize the sick/injured, is it a combination of both, there isn't a specific formula that will work for everyone, but I think discussing the decision-making process is important and it is important that we not villainize those who are having to make these decisions. 

Now that I have gone off on a total tangent, which is not so much about increasing behavior euthanasia, but discussing our current situations and how we can/are making these decisions when they are necessary, I would love to hear other thoughts! 

Thank you for sharing that article @Julielani Chang, I am looking forward to reading over it. 

I hope everyone has a fantastic weekend, and happy Friday! 

Kim this is wonderful compilation.   It is SO overwhelming to go on Maddie's site b/c there is SO much . So to have someone do this, is such a Huge help.  How did you compile this?  Just curious.

Would be great to have a new webinar with the best of the best tips of all these webinars !!!! 

Do you have any idea when the new webinar  #2(pilot study) will be?

With deep appreciation!

Mary Lou

Hi Mary Lou, 

Thank you for starting this discussion on an important topic that touches all of us. I appreciate your recommendations for future webcasts/panels and have shared your comments above with our Education team.

For your immediate use, the team has compiled an extensive list of 25 past conference recordings and webcasts on Increased Intake, Behavioral Issues and Organizations with Successful Programs that I've attached to this post. The attachment also lists 3 upcoming Fall webcasts on related topics. 

I hope these resources are helpful. Thank you again for starting this conversation! 

Hi, thank you for the discussion.

Can you  please talk to your two staffers that went to the conference and let us know what they heard-what their take- a -way was from the keynote?

If anyone is monitoring this with Maddie's Fund.  This looks to be a significant need for a webinar on this. Maybe multiple webinars breaking down the different components. Would love to have a panel that is actually doing something to address the 1) increased intake 2)behavioral issues (so many shelters still euthanize within a few weeks -even a few days for owner surrenders and after the required hold time for strays. 3) addressing the local needs in your state/community.

Not a webinar on the challenges(we all know that) one with organizations that actually run successful  programs  that can be replicated. In MA we have so many organizations transporting in, which is fine, but ignoring the need in our own back door, which is not fine.  The need is addressing behavioral issues dogs are manifesting-whether from shelter stress or poor/no training v. aggression. most behavioral issues seem to be labored aggressive-therefore unadoptable -therefore euthanized.  Still touting they are No Kil because they do not euthanize adoptable dogs.   Maddie, would love a webinar that speaks the real truth of what should and can be done by showcasing successful programs throughout the country.

I was not at the conference, but two of our team members attended.  I think that this conversation is one that is important to have!  We are seeing higher populations/longer lengths of stays in many shelters across the country, as well as challenges with hiring and retaining staff.  In my opinion, and I would love to continue to see more data to help further shape my opinion with data, we are facing capacity for care issues in a large number of shelters, and we are starting to really see/feel the repercussions of overextending ourselves and our teams.  

I would love to see more shelters who have the space and staffing levels they need to meet their community's needs, but in my experience, most are undersized and understaffed to meet the needs in such a way that they are staying within their true capacity to provide quality care.  Those who come into this industry do so to help save lives and have a positive impact, which lends to us overextending ourselves, and wanting to do so to ensure that greater impact.  At some point we will all hit a wall, many are resilient and have a "slump" and bounce back, but others are not, and quality people end up leaving the industry all together.

We are seeing many organizations, mine included, that are having to make some very difficult decisions that we have not had to even consider for several years, on a daily basis.  What is the answer?  Do we keep the behavior dogs and euthanize the sick/injured, is it a combination of both, there isn't a specific formula that will work for everyone, but I think discussing the decision-making process is important and it is important that we not villainize those who are having to make these decisions. 

Now that I have gone off on a total tangent, which is not so much about increasing behavior euthanasia, but discussing our current situations and how we can/are making these decisions when they are necessary, I would love to hear other thoughts! 

Thank you for sharing that article @Julielani Chang, I am looking forward to reading over it. 

I hope everyone has a fantastic weekend, and happy Friday! 

So happy to hear it's helpful! I went straight to the source, our Media Project Manager @Alison Gibson, who handles all our webinars and recordings (and many other things!) and she compiled the list. I believe we're still working out details on the three upcoming Fall webcasts so there aren't dates yet. Once everything is confirmed, we'll be promoting it here in the forum and via our Maddie's Fund mailing list. If don't already receive emails from Maddie's Fund (these are separate from the forum digests), you can sign up for the mailing list here.  

Cheers!

Kim this is wonderful compilation.   It is SO overwhelming to go on Maddie's site b/c there is SO much . So to have someone do this, is such a Huge help.  How did you compile this?  Just curious.

Would be great to have a new webinar with the best of the best tips of all these webinars !!!! 

Do you have any idea when the new webinar  #2(pilot study) will be?

With deep appreciation!

Mary Lou

Hi Mary Lou, 

Thank you for starting this discussion on an important topic that touches all of us. I appreciate your recommendations for future webcasts/panels and have shared your comments above with our Education team.

For your immediate use, the team has compiled an extensive list of 25 past conference recordings and webcasts on Increased Intake, Behavioral Issues and Organizations with Successful Programs that I've attached to this post. The attachment also lists 3 upcoming Fall webcasts on related topics. 

I hope these resources are helpful. Thank you again for starting this conversation! 

Hi, thank you for the discussion.

Can you  please talk to your two staffers that went to the conference and let us know what they heard-what their take- a -way was from the keynote?

If anyone is monitoring this with Maddie's Fund.  This looks to be a significant need for a webinar on this. Maybe multiple webinars breaking down the different components. Would love to have a panel that is actually doing something to address the 1) increased intake 2)behavioral issues (so many shelters still euthanize within a few weeks -even a few days for owner surrenders and after the required hold time for strays. 3) addressing the local needs in your state/community.

Not a webinar on the challenges(we all know that) one with organizations that actually run successful  programs  that can be replicated. In MA we have so many organizations transporting in, which is fine, but ignoring the need in our own back door, which is not fine.  The need is addressing behavioral issues dogs are manifesting-whether from shelter stress or poor/no training v. aggression. most behavioral issues seem to be labored aggressive-therefore unadoptable -therefore euthanized.  Still touting they are No Kil because they do not euthanize adoptable dogs.   Maddie, would love a webinar that speaks the real truth of what should and can be done by showcasing successful programs throughout the country.

I was not at the conference, but two of our team members attended.  I think that this conversation is one that is important to have!  We are seeing higher populations/longer lengths of stays in many shelters across the country, as well as challenges with hiring and retaining staff.  In my opinion, and I would love to continue to see more data to help further shape my opinion with data, we are facing capacity for care issues in a large number of shelters, and we are starting to really see/feel the repercussions of overextending ourselves and our teams.  

I would love to see more shelters who have the space and staffing levels they need to meet their community's needs, but in my experience, most are undersized and understaffed to meet the needs in such a way that they are staying within their true capacity to provide quality care.  Those who come into this industry do so to help save lives and have a positive impact, which lends to us overextending ourselves, and wanting to do so to ensure that greater impact.  At some point we will all hit a wall, many are resilient and have a "slump" and bounce back, but others are not, and quality people end up leaving the industry all together.

We are seeing many organizations, mine included, that are having to make some very difficult decisions that we have not had to even consider for several years, on a daily basis.  What is the answer?  Do we keep the behavior dogs and euthanize the sick/injured, is it a combination of both, there isn't a specific formula that will work for everyone, but I think discussing the decision-making process is important and it is important that we not villainize those who are having to make these decisions. 

Now that I have gone off on a total tangent, which is not so much about increasing behavior euthanasia, but discussing our current situations and how we can/are making these decisions when they are necessary, I would love to hear other thoughts! 

Thank you for sharing that article @Julielani Chang, I am looking forward to reading over it. 

I hope everyone has a fantastic weekend, and happy Friday! 

Kim,

do you have a webinar or any useful info on how to address Liability concerns when you are adopting a dog with a bite history?

2. Do you have a specific webinar or list of organizations that have successfully implemented an Owner Surrender Program v.  Owner Reliquised Euthanazia. In other words, when an owner inquires about surrendering a dog that has beahavioral issues (or they think has behavioral issues) rather than offer euthanazia, they either help the owners keep the dog OR take the dog in v. euthanizing.

Thank you,

Mary Lou

So happy to hear it's helpful! I went straight to the source, our Media Project Manager @Alison Gibson, who handles all our webinars and recordings (and many other things!) and she compiled the list. I believe we're still working out details on the three upcoming Fall webcasts so there aren't dates yet. Once everything is confirmed, we'll be promoting it here in the forum and via our Maddie's Fund mailing list. If don't already receive emails from Maddie's Fund (these are separate from the forum digests), you can sign up for the mailing list here.  

Cheers!

Kim this is wonderful compilation.   It is SO overwhelming to go on Maddie's site b/c there is SO much . So to have someone do this, is such a Huge help.  How did you compile this?  Just curious.

Would be great to have a new webinar with the best of the best tips of all these webinars !!!! 

Do you have any idea when the new webinar  #2(pilot study) will be?

With deep appreciation!

Mary Lou

Hi Mary Lou, 

Thank you for starting this discussion on an important topic that touches all of us. I appreciate your recommendations for future webcasts/panels and have shared your comments above with our Education team.

For your immediate use, the team has compiled an extensive list of 25 past conference recordings and webcasts on Increased Intake, Behavioral Issues and Organizations with Successful Programs that I've attached to this post. The attachment also lists 3 upcoming Fall webcasts on related topics. 

I hope these resources are helpful. Thank you again for starting this conversation! 

Hi, thank you for the discussion.

Can you  please talk to your two staffers that went to the conference and let us know what they heard-what their take- a -way was from the keynote?

If anyone is monitoring this with Maddie's Fund.  This looks to be a significant need for a webinar on this. Maybe multiple webinars breaking down the different components. Would love to have a panel that is actually doing something to address the 1) increased intake 2)behavioral issues (so many shelters still euthanize within a few weeks -even a few days for owner surrenders and after the required hold time for strays. 3) addressing the local needs in your state/community.

Not a webinar on the challenges(we all know that) one with organizations that actually run successful  programs  that can be replicated. In MA we have so many organizations transporting in, which is fine, but ignoring the need in our own back door, which is not fine.  The need is addressing behavioral issues dogs are manifesting-whether from shelter stress or poor/no training v. aggression. most behavioral issues seem to be labored aggressive-therefore unadoptable -therefore euthanized.  Still touting they are No Kil because they do not euthanize adoptable dogs.   Maddie, would love a webinar that speaks the real truth of what should and can be done by showcasing successful programs throughout the country.

I was not at the conference, but two of our team members attended.  I think that this conversation is one that is important to have!  We are seeing higher populations/longer lengths of stays in many shelters across the country, as well as challenges with hiring and retaining staff.  In my opinion, and I would love to continue to see more data to help further shape my opinion with data, we are facing capacity for care issues in a large number of shelters, and we are starting to really see/feel the repercussions of overextending ourselves and our teams.  

I would love to see more shelters who have the space and staffing levels they need to meet their community's needs, but in my experience, most are undersized and understaffed to meet the needs in such a way that they are staying within their true capacity to provide quality care.  Those who come into this industry do so to help save lives and have a positive impact, which lends to us overextending ourselves, and wanting to do so to ensure that greater impact.  At some point we will all hit a wall, many are resilient and have a "slump" and bounce back, but others are not, and quality people end up leaving the industry all together.

We are seeing many organizations, mine included, that are having to make some very difficult decisions that we have not had to even consider for several years, on a daily basis.  What is the answer?  Do we keep the behavior dogs and euthanize the sick/injured, is it a combination of both, there isn't a specific formula that will work for everyone, but I think discussing the decision-making process is important and it is important that we not villainize those who are having to make these decisions. 

Now that I have gone off on a total tangent, which is not so much about increasing behavior euthanasia, but discussing our current situations and how we can/are making these decisions when they are necessary, I would love to hear other thoughts! 

Thank you for sharing that article @Julielani Chang, I am looking forward to reading over it. 

I hope everyone has a fantastic weekend, and happy Friday! 

I was not at the conference, but two of our team members attended.  I think that this conversation is one that is important to have!  We are seeing higher populations/longer lengths of stays in many shelters across the country, as well as challenges with hiring and retaining staff.  In my opinion, and I would love to continue to see more data to help further shape my opinion with data, we are facing capacity for care issues in a large number of shelters, and we are starting to really see/feel the repercussions of overextending ourselves and our teams.  

I would love to see more shelters who have the space and staffing levels they need to meet their community's needs, but in my experience, most are undersized and understaffed to meet the needs in such a way that they are staying within their true capacity to provide quality care.  Those who come into this industry do so to help save lives and have a positive impact, which lends to us overextending ourselves, and wanting to do so to ensure that greater impact.  At some point we will all hit a wall, many are resilient and have a "slump" and bounce back, but others are not, and quality people end up leaving the industry all together.

We are seeing many organizations, mine included, that are having to make some very difficult decisions that we have not had to even consider for several years, on a daily basis.  What is the answer?  Do we keep the behavior dogs and euthanize the sick/injured, is it a combination of both, there isn't a specific formula that will work for everyone, but I think discussing the decision-making process is important and it is important that we not villainize those who are having to make these decisions. 

Now that I have gone off on a total tangent, which is not so much about increasing behavior euthanasia, but discussing our current situations and how we can/are making these decisions when they are necessary, I would love to hear other thoughts! 

Thank you for sharing that article @Julielani Chang, I am looking forward to reading over it. 

I hope everyone has a fantastic weekend, and happy Friday! 

Hey MaryLou,

I think you are referring to what I shared.  I don't want to speak for the ASPCA and perhaps the line "behavior euthanasia should be practiced more" was not the best description of what was said.  I think how @Adrienne McHargue summarized it is a better summary:

I was at the conference, and my takeaway from Matt's talk was that we should be talking about behavior euthanasia in the same way we might talk about medical euthanasia. One has stigma attached to it and the other is taken as a professional evaluation of the health of the animal. My understanding of what he was saying was that they should both be openly and professionally discussed because both affect the quality of life of the pet and the safety of the community, and they both are reliant on the resources within the shelter.

It's my opinion that this stigma around behavior euthanasia stifles good professional discussion around this topic for fear of retribution.  That retribution is very very real and described by many of my colleagues and results in such extremes as death threats.  So it's logical that with that pressure, shelter leaders avoid euthanasia decision making, which leads to other unintended consequences like longer length of stay which ties up much needed kennel space for other dogs in need, staff/volunteers getting harmed both mentally and physically and in the worst case scenario outsourcing euthanasia decisions to the adopters.  My point being is that this is not a simple topic and has many cascading impacts for both local and non-local dogs.  I very much appreciate that the ASPCA is willing to start this conversation when so many other orgs have shied away from doing so. 

The good news is that you don't really have to wait for the recordings from this conference to confirm what the ASPCA is communicating on this topic as they have created a webinar on this topic that will be presented on August 23rd.  Info on the webinar can be found here:

 https://www.aspcapro.org/training/webinar/northern-tier-shelter-initiative-zoomies-behavioral-euthanasia-approaching

------------------------------
michael Keiley
Director of Adoption Centers and Programs
MSPCA-Angell

Original Message:
Sent: 07-28-2023 07:35 AM
From: Mary Lou Maraganis
Subject: Behavior Euthanasia Should Be Practiced More.

In total agreement the discussion must happen. I've been saying that all along.  Totally different than rumors out there that ASPCA is touting that behavioral euth should be practiced more.  Things like that hurt the conversation. 

Retaliation goes both ways. I have had organizations that cannot or will not help an owner continually refuse to give owners our contact info but rather offer euthanasia as their only option. Agencies touting we are helping 'unsafe' dogs. Shelters that resent when we do help a dog they refused. Had death threats too.  But that shouldn't stop a conversation. That is simply an excuse not to have one. Look at all the retaliation other great leaders of movements have had to endure over the centuries. We set up ground rules and push forward. This last set of vulnerable dogs in New England should be getting our attention and discussion now.  It will be uncomfortable I am sure but we likely have endured tougher things  and it should not stop us.  I look forward to your response  on our local  group thread as well.  

Hey MaryLou,

I think you are referring to what I shared.  I don't want to speak for the ASPCA and perhaps the line "behavior euthanasia should be practiced more" was not the best description of what was said.  I think how @Adrienne McHargue summarized it is a better summary:

I was at the conference, and my takeaway from Matt's talk was that we should be talking about behavior euthanasia in the same way we might talk about medical euthanasia. One has stigma attached to it and the other is taken as a professional evaluation of the health of the animal. My understanding of what he was saying was that they should both be openly and professionally discussed because both affect the quality of life of the pet and the safety of the community, and they both are reliant on the resources within the shelter.

It's my opinion that this stigma around behavior euthanasia stifles good professional discussion around this topic for fear of retribution.  That retribution is very very real and described by many of my colleagues and results in such extremes as death threats.  So it's logical that with that pressure, shelter leaders avoid euthanasia decision making, which leads to other unintended consequences like longer length of stay which ties up much needed kennel space for other dogs in need, staff/volunteers getting harmed both mentally and physically and in the worst case scenario outsourcing euthanasia decisions to the adopters.  My point being is that this is not a simple topic and has many cascading impacts for both local and non-local dogs.  I very much appreciate that the ASPCA is willing to start this conversation when so many other orgs have shied away from doing so. 

The good news is that you don't really have to wait for the recordings from this conference to confirm what the ASPCA is communicating on this topic as they have created a webinar on this topic that will be presented on August 23rd.  Info on the webinar can be found here:

 https://www.aspcapro.org/training/webinar/northern-tier-shelter-initiative-zoomies-behavioral-euthanasia-approaching

------------------------------
michael Keiley
Director of Adoption Centers and Programs
MSPCA-Angell

Original Message:
Sent: 07-28-2023 07:35 AM
From: Mary Lou Maraganis
Subject: Behavior Euthanasia Should Be Practiced More.

Hi Mary Lou. 

I know you will find this off topic because this thread is about dealing with the problem dogs we have now. But the subject of Euthanasia needs to be discussed now because of the growing numbers of dogs, including problem dogs, in our shelters. 

There is a direct correlation between the growing number of dogs we have in our shelters, holding up space in our facilities, and the unattainable expense of spay and neutering for owners and rescuers.

GCCCP is a TNR organization that  promises free spay\neuters to ANY cat in our city. We offer this because unwanted animals are a profound disruption to the wellbeing of a society.

The cost of spay\neuters should be controlled, if not eliminated. This sounds extreme but we are talking about killing animals when we could have avoided the overcrowding before it started.

Even in my small city people are begging for a feasible way to get their dogs altered, many bully breeds.

The availability of spay\neutering is never too far from the answer. And the lack of options is at the heart of most problems.

------------------------------
Donna Brown
Garden City Community Cats Project

Original Message:
Sent: 07-28-2023 07:35 AM
From: Mary Lou Maraganis
Subject: Behavior Euthanasia Should Be Practiced More.

Hi Mary Lou. 

I know you will find this off topic because this thread is about dealing with the problem dogs we have now. But the subject of Euthanasia needs to be discussed now because of the growing numbers of dogs, including problem dogs, in our shelters. 

There is a direct correlation between the growing number of dogs we have in our shelters, holding up space in our facilities, and the unattainable expense of spay and neutering for owners and rescuers.

GCCCP is a TNR organization that  promises free spay\neuters to ANY cat in our city. We offer this because unwanted animals are a profound disruption to the wellbeing of a society.

The cost of spay\neuters should be controlled, if not eliminated. This sounds extreme but we are talking about killing animals when we could have avoided the overcrowding before it started.

Even in my small city people are begging for a feasible way to get their dogs altered, many bully breeds.

The availability of spay\neutering is never too far from the answer. And the lack of options is at the heart of most problems.

------------------------------
Donna Brown
Garden City Community Cats Project

Original Message:
Sent: 07-28-2023 07:35 AM
From: Mary Lou Maraganis
Subject: Behavior Euthanasia Should Be Practiced More.

Your ideas are far too practical.  They will never fly.  How did you manage to pull that off in Garden City?

Hi Mary Lou. 

I know you will find this off topic because this thread is about dealing with the problem dogs we have now. But the subject of Euthanasia needs to be discussed now because of the growing numbers of dogs, including problem dogs, in our shelters. 

There is a direct correlation between the growing number of dogs we have in our shelters, holding up space in our facilities, and the unattainable expense of spay and neutering for owners and rescuers.

GCCCP is a TNR organization that  promises free spay\neuters to ANY cat in our city. We offer this because unwanted animals are a profound disruption to the wellbeing of a society.

The cost of spay\neuters should be controlled, if not eliminated. This sounds extreme but we are talking about killing animals when we could have avoided the overcrowding before it started.

Even in my small city people are begging for a feasible way to get their dogs altered, many bully breeds.

The availability of spay\neutering is never too far from the answer. And the lack of options is at the heart of most problems.

------------------------------
Donna Brown
Garden City Community Cats Project

Original Message:
Sent: 07-28-2023 07:35 AM
From: Mary Lou Maraganis
Subject: Behavior Euthanasia Should Be Practiced More.

Thank you.  But as I said in an earlier email, We have wonderful orgs in MA that have helped greatly w/ spay/neutering.  That is why we are now in the position and have the luxury to now help the vulnerable dogs left in your community.

I so wish what has happened here in New England regarding spay/neuter infiltrates other parts of the country that have a huge homeless pet issue. 

Your ideas are far too practical.  They will never fly.  How did you manage to pull that off in Garden City?

Hi Mary Lou. 

I know you will find this off topic because this thread is about dealing with the problem dogs we have now. But the subject of Euthanasia needs to be discussed now because of the growing numbers of dogs, including problem dogs, in our shelters. 

There is a direct correlation between the growing number of dogs we have in our shelters, holding up space in our facilities, and the unattainable expense of spay and neutering for owners and rescuers.

GCCCP is a TNR organization that  promises free spay\neuters to ANY cat in our city. We offer this because unwanted animals are a profound disruption to the wellbeing of a society.

The cost of spay\neuters should be controlled, if not eliminated. This sounds extreme but we are talking about killing animals when we could have avoided the overcrowding before it started.

Even in my small city people are begging for a feasible way to get their dogs altered, many bully breeds.

The availability of spay\neutering is never too far from the answer. And the lack of options is at the heart of most problems.

------------------------------
Donna Brown
Garden City Community Cats Project

Original Message:
Sent: 07-28-2023 07:35 AM
From: Mary Lou Maraganis
Subject: Behavior Euthanasia Should Be Practiced More.

I wish it could be that great in all states.   It's a real struggle in Arkansas to get people to spay/neuter even when free

Thank you.  But as I said in an earlier email, We have wonderful orgs in MA that have helped greatly w/ spay/neutering.  That is why we are now in the position and have the luxury to now help the vulnerable dogs left in your community.

I so wish what has happened here in New England regarding spay/neuter infiltrates other parts of the country that have a huge homeless pet issue. 

Your ideas are far too practical.  They will never fly.  How did you manage to pull that off in Garden City?

Hi Mary Lou. 

I know you will find this off topic because this thread is about dealing with the problem dogs we have now. But the subject of Euthanasia needs to be discussed now because of the growing numbers of dogs, including problem dogs, in our shelters. 

There is a direct correlation between the growing number of dogs we have in our shelters, holding up space in our facilities, and the unattainable expense of spay and neutering for owners and rescuers.

GCCCP is a TNR organization that  promises free spay\neuters to ANY cat in our city. We offer this because unwanted animals are a profound disruption to the wellbeing of a society.

The cost of spay\neuters should be controlled, if not eliminated. This sounds extreme but we are talking about killing animals when we could have avoided the overcrowding before it started.

Even in my small city people are begging for a feasible way to get their dogs altered, many bully breeds.

The availability of spay\neutering is never too far from the answer. And the lack of options is at the heart of most problems.

------------------------------
Donna Brown
Garden City Community Cats Project

Original Message:
Sent: 07-28-2023 07:35 AM
From: Mary Lou Maraganis
Subject: Behavior Euthanasia Should Be Practiced More.

Please check out and sign up for our e-news:  www.unitedspayalliance.org. 

We are all about the importance of expanding access to s/n.  I am on their board.  

I wish it could be that great in all states.   It's a real struggle in Arkansas to get people to spay/neuter even when free

Thank you.  But as I said in an earlier email, We have wonderful orgs in MA that have helped greatly w/ spay/neutering.  That is why we are now in the position and have the luxury to now help the vulnerable dogs left in your community.

I so wish what has happened here in New England regarding spay/neuter infiltrates other parts of the country that have a huge homeless pet issue. 

Your ideas are far too practical.  They will never fly.  How did you manage to pull that off in Garden City?

Hi Mary Lou. 

I know you will find this off topic because this thread is about dealing with the problem dogs we have now. But the subject of Euthanasia needs to be discussed now because of the growing numbers of dogs, including problem dogs, in our shelters. 

There is a direct correlation between the growing number of dogs we have in our shelters, holding up space in our facilities, and the unattainable expense of spay and neutering for owners and rescuers.

GCCCP is a TNR organization that  promises free spay\neuters to ANY cat in our city. We offer this because unwanted animals are a profound disruption to the wellbeing of a society.

The cost of spay\neuters should be controlled, if not eliminated. This sounds extreme but we are talking about killing animals when we could have avoided the overcrowding before it started.

Even in my small city people are begging for a feasible way to get their dogs altered, many bully breeds.

The availability of spay\neutering is never too far from the answer. And the lack of options is at the heart of most problems.

------------------------------
Donna Brown
Garden City Community Cats Project

Original Message:
Sent: 07-28-2023 07:35 AM
From: Mary Lou Maraganis
Subject: Behavior Euthanasia Should Be Practiced More.

Your ideas are far too practical.  They will never fly.  How did you manage to pull that off in Garden City?

Hi Mary Lou. 

I know you will find this off topic because this thread is about dealing with the problem dogs we have now. But the subject of Euthanasia needs to be discussed now because of the growing numbers of dogs, including problem dogs, in our shelters. 

There is a direct correlation between the growing number of dogs we have in our shelters, holding up space in our facilities, and the unattainable expense of spay and neutering for owners and rescuers.

GCCCP is a TNR organization that  promises free spay\neuters to ANY cat in our city. We offer this because unwanted animals are a profound disruption to the wellbeing of a society.

The cost of spay\neuters should be controlled, if not eliminated. This sounds extreme but we are talking about killing animals when we could have avoided the overcrowding before it started.

Even in my small city people are begging for a feasible way to get their dogs altered, many bully breeds.

The availability of spay\neutering is never too far from the answer. And the lack of options is at the heart of most problems.

------------------------------
Donna Brown
Garden City Community Cats Project

Original Message:
Sent: 07-28-2023 07:35 AM
From: Mary Lou Maraganis
Subject: Behavior Euthanasia Should Be Practiced More.

Reading this threw my PTSD into a homerun. This conversation MUST BE held and we as animal welfare professionals MUST become comfortable with the uncomfortable, because there are too many high prices paid. Too many people bit. Too many animals suffering. We truly are wasting so much money, time, effort etc onto dogs that are just too difficult to exist in society. At the end of the day - they're not happy - they cant experience majority of what life has to offer dogs, they're in a constant mental anguish whether from fear, reactivity, triggers, environments etc  . I am not talking about dogs who simply need the right training and training tools to come around. I am talking about multiple bite-dogs,super reactive dogs who simply havent bit because a handler is good at avoiding it every time but if given an opportunity someone would really be injured, I am talking about dogs who cannot go for a simple walk, those cannot be around people, etc. How much management can we really do and for how long? because at some point, there will be a simple mistake that someone makes, that pays a big price. 

I, like many rescuers, did not believe in behavioral euth until i started to learn about dog psychology and true behavioral training, not constant cookie feeding training. 

I was personally begged by a neighborhood person who "heard" about how great I was with dogs, to take her dog into my care to see if I can help him. She was in her late 70's and had a 2 yo 100lbs Goldendoodle - sounds like a recipe for disaster due to level of activity needed, but the woman truly tried her very best, she sent the dog to two different board and train programs, nothing helped. He had bit 5 people, including her immediate family multiple times. We discussed euth but she couldnt do it. 

Long story short, I got guilted into taking him in. I agreed to foster him myself but I had her sign documentation not only to surrender but also that she understands that if the dog has a big bite again (not a nip etc) he will have to be euthanized for public's safety due to prior history. 

First week - we were literally petrified in the house. He was very happy and hyper and active and begggeeeed to be touched, but like a cat, at some point he'd change his mind. You also could not get him into a crate - he had an aversion to it like he was committed to kill anyone who would try to close the door. the next week we started to bond and he stopped stalking us and growling etc. We started to train, we put him on Prozac, we started to exercise. Life was great - or so it seemed. Two months after him being with us - we even dabbled with the idea of adopting him ourselves. One night i was sitting on the floor and talking on the phone. He came up - above me - and nudged his snout into my neck area for me to pet him - I did - and at some point he froze - and I realized that this is it, hes gonna bite. I can only be fast enough to cover my jugular. He went into a biting frenzy and couldnt stop. He got me - almost everywhere. I couldnt get him off.  My dogs got him off of me. There was no trigger, no reason and no rhyme, there was no one else home, the dogs were asleep, the lights were on only in 1 room, im talking PEACE in the house and no reason for this to have happened. When I went to the ER the doctors joked that I was on an episode of sci-fy. I was in shock and didnt feel any pain. The next day I  took him to the vet - I laid on the floor and i stroke his beautiful fur with both of my arms "casted" as they euthanized his 100lb body on my lap - i cried hysterically for 45min taking up that whole room, but i knew that the attack of such magnitude is a big  no no but paired with the fact that it was completely unprovoked, unpredictable and had no trigger was frightening to keep alive. Imagine it was a random child instead of me? I certain have awful PTSD from it. I tried so hard to get over it but I just couldnt shake it off. It took me MONTHS to not "faint" when a dog growled. I worked on my scars to get lighter. I got a tattoo on the arm that covered my jugular - it had the most punctures. I adopted multiple Goldendoodles. BUT this is a LOT to deal with - how can we put this off an adopters?

First….I'm sorry for this experience!  I am a dog lover!   Treat all dogs with respect and love.   But I agree there are those dogs, those situations where a dog you can not trust has no business being put in adopters Hans nor in a kennel at a rescue to never receive the attention, affection they deserve.  That is not living the life deserved.  I rescued a wandering pit Bull with a thick chain around his neck.  Slowly introduced him to our home and two other dogs.  From day one he had an emptiness in his eyes but he adjusted amazingly well.  Fast forward 14 months.  I took him out like any other day and when I called him to come into the house, he raced at me and I knew I was in trouble.  He ripped my shirt off my back and not my side drawing blood.  He continued grabbing my clothes as I kept backing toward my door.   I fell in love with this dog over 14 months and decided to give him another chance.  Three weeks later he attacked my husband biting him on his side as well.   There comes a time to realize,  this dog is not capable of living a safe life and we had him euthanized.  Not knowing his background and histoy or even their chemical imbalances…….rescues as well as owners must know when euthanizing is best.   Thank you for sharing your story.  

Reading this threw my PTSD into a homerun. This conversation MUST BE held and we as animal welfare professionals MUST become comfortable with the uncomfortable, because there are too many high prices paid. Too many people bit. Too many animals suffering. We truly are wasting so much money, time, effort etc onto dogs that are just too difficult to exist in society. At the end of the day - they're not happy - they cant experience majority of what life has to offer dogs, they're in a constant mental anguish whether from fear, reactivity, triggers, environments etc  . I am not talking about dogs who simply need the right training and training tools to come around. I am talking about multiple bite-dogs,super reactive dogs who simply havent bit because a handler is good at avoiding it every time but if given an opportunity someone would really be injured, I am talking about dogs who cannot go for a simple walk, those cannot be around people, etc. How much management can we really do and for how long? because at some point, there will be a simple mistake that someone makes, that pays a big price. 

I, like many rescuers, did not believe in behavioral euth until i started to learn about dog psychology and true behavioral training, not constant cookie feeding training. 

I was personally begged by a neighborhood person who "heard" about how great I was with dogs, to take her dog into my care to see if I can help him. She was in her late 70's and had a 2 yo 100lbs Goldendoodle - sounds like a recipe for disaster due to level of activity needed, but the woman truly tried her very best, she sent the dog to two different board and train programs, nothing helped. He had bit 5 people, including her immediate family multiple times. We discussed euth but she couldnt do it. 

Long story short, I got guilted into taking him in. I agreed to foster him myself but I had her sign documentation not only to surrender but also that she understands that if the dog has a big bite again (not a nip etc) he will have to be euthanized for public's safety due to prior history. 

First week - we were literally petrified in the house. He was very happy and hyper and active and begggeeeed to be touched, but like a cat, at some point he'd change his mind. You also could not get him into a crate - he had an aversion to it like he was committed to kill anyone who would try to close the door. the next week we started to bond and he stopped stalking us and growling etc. We started to train, we put him on Prozac, we started to exercise. Life was great - or so it seemed. Two months after him being with us - we even dabbled with the idea of adopting him ourselves. One night i was sitting on the floor and talking on the phone. He came up - above me - and nudged his snout into my neck area for me to pet him - I did - and at some point he froze - and I realized that this is it, hes gonna bite. I can only be fast enough to cover my jugular. He went into a biting frenzy and couldnt stop. He got me - almost everywhere. I couldnt get him off.  My dogs got him off of me. There was no trigger, no reason and no rhyme, there was no one else home, the dogs were asleep, the lights were on only in 1 room, im talking PEACE in the house and no reason for this to have happened. When I went to the ER the doctors joked that I was on an episode of sci-fy. I was in shock and didnt feel any pain. The next day I  took him to the vet - I laid on the floor and i stroke his beautiful fur with both of my arms "casted" as they euthanized his 100lb body on my lap - i cried hysterically for 45min taking up that whole room, but i knew that the attack of such magnitude is a big  no no but paired with the fact that it was completely unprovoked, unpredictable and had no trigger was frightening to keep alive. Imagine it was a random child instead of me? I certain have awful PTSD from it. I tried so hard to get over it but I just couldnt shake it off. It took me MONTHS to not "faint" when a dog growled. I worked on my scars to get lighter. I got a tattoo on the arm that covered my jugular - it had the most punctures. I adopted multiple Goldendoodles. BUT this is a LOT to deal with - how can we put this off an adopters?