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Community Conversations - 8/26/2024 - Behavioral and Medical Impacts of Spay and Neuter

  • 1.  Community Conversations - 8/26/2024 - Behavioral and Medical Impacts of Spay and Neuter

    Posted 08-22-2024 02:11 PM

    Updated 8/26/24 at 1:43 pm PT: Recording now available to watch on-demand!

    We hope to see you on the next Community Conversations call on Monday, 8/26/24 at 11am PT for a presentation titled, "Behavioral and Medical Impacts of Spay and Neuter" with Dr. @Sheila Segurson (she/her), Director of Shelter Solutions at Maddie's Fund.

    What does spay/neuter mean for the life of the pet? Let's talk about what the research is indicating about its impacts on their behavior and health. Join us for a session with Maddie Fund's own board-certified veterinary behaviorist Dr. Sheila Segurson where she'll share research results and discuss what they mean for those of us who love dogs and cats. 

    Register for Community Conversations hosted via Zoom: https://maddies.fund/CommunityConvoRegistration2024

    As always, this discussion thread will be updated with the recording and resources so you can watch and share whenever you'd like.  After you watch the recording on-demand or attend the call live, be sure to complete the new August 2024 entry form to enter to win up to a $5,000 grant: https://www.maddiesfund.org/weekly-community-conversations-aug24-giveaway.htm


    #Behavior,TrainingandEnrichment
    #EducationandTraining
    #Medicine,SurgeryandSterilization

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    Maddie's Pet Forum Admin
    Maddie's Fund
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  • 2.  RE: Community Conversations - 8/26/2024 - Behavioral and Medical Impacts of Spay and Neuter

    Posted 08-26-2024 04:19 PM

    Unanswered question from the chat:

    "To clarify is this stating that there are certain breeds that are better off without spaying and neutering at all?" - Tori Tanner



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    Maddie's Pet Forum Admin
    Maddie's Fund
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    Original Message


  • 3.  RE: Community Conversations - 8/26/2024 - Behavioral and Medical Impacts of Spay and Neuter

    Posted 08-28-2024 01:22 PM

    Hi,

    Thanks for your question. I'm assuming you're referencing the Hart research papers and charts with recommended ages of spay/neuter for certain breeds of dogs (see below). The papers themselves provide more detail. For example, for Doberman (one of the breeds where it says 'leave intact'), it says:

    "

    Doberman Pinscher

    The study population was 109 intact males, 91 neutered males, 53 intact females, and 108 spayed females, for a sample size of 358 cases. The percentage of intact males with at least one joint disorder was 2 percent and 0 percent for intact females. There was no evident increase in this measure with neutering males. For females, spaying within 11 months resulted in an increase in joint disorders of 11 percent, which did not reach significance. The occurrence of one or more of the cancers followed for both intact males and intact females was 2 percent. In neutered males at the 1 year and 2–8 year periods, there was a non-significant increase in occurrence of cancers to 6 percent and 13 percent, respectively. For females, there was no noteworthy increase in cancers with spaying at any time. The occurrence of MC in females left intact was 2 percent and 4 percent for those spayed at 2–8 years. There was a 7 percent occurrence of PYO in intact females. UI was a significant risk in females spayed at any age up to 2 years, ranging from 25 percent in the females spayed at <6 mo. (p <0.01) to 19 percent for those spayed between 1 and 2 years (p <0.05). The suggested guideline, based on fragmentary results, for males is to leave the male intact or neuter before 1 year of age to avoid the possible increased risk of cancers seen in those neutered beyond a year of age. For females, the suggested guideline, also based on limited data, given the risk of UI in early spayed females, and the possible increased risk of a joint disorder, is to consider delaying spaying until beyond 2 years of age."

    So, for just a few breeds, the authors recommend leaving the dogs intact because the evidence they have tells them that their is higher risk to neutering them than to leaving them intact.  However, also remember that all of these results are telling us correlations (we can't yet be confident that spay and neuter is the primarily cause of these results) and that the dogs in the population studied were from a biased set of dogs - dogs who had visited the vet school's veterinary teaching hospital... which may or may not be representative of most dogs out there.



    ------------------------------
    Sheila Segurson, DVM, DACVB
    Board Certified Veterinary Behaviorist
    Director of Community Solutions
    Maddie's Fund
    Pleasanton CA
    9258608284
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    Original Message


  • 4.  RE: Community Conversations - 8/26/2024 - Behavioral and Medical Impacts of Spay and Neuter

    Posted 08-26-2024 04:20 PM

    Unanswered question from the chat:

    "What about a mix of unknown, feral, mixed breed dogs like in GA and s/n before 14 weeks because they have to be to be adopted?" - @test



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    Maddie's Pet Forum Admin
    Maddie's Fund
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    Original Message


  • 5.  RE: Community Conversations - 8/26/2024 - Behavioral and Medical Impacts of Spay and Neuter

    Posted 08-28-2024 01:28 PM

    Hi,

    When we adopt dogs out from shelters we have to make the best decision possible for them. The Association of Shelter Veterinarians recommends that ALL dogs adopted from shelters be spayed/neutered before they're adopted.   In the one study that i know of that looked at mixed breed dogs, they didn't find an increased risk of cancer or joint disease in small or medium mixed breed dogs.  With large and giant mixed breed dogs, there is an increased risk of joint disease but not of cancer.

    Most of us feel that in situations where we can't be confident that wheoever the (large or giant) dog is going to, is going to prevent reproduction, the better choice is to s/n before adoption. 



    ------------------------------
    Sheila Segurson, DVM, DACVB
    Board Certified Veterinary Behaviorist
    Director of Community Solutions
    Maddie's Fund
    Pleasanton CA
    9258608284
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 6.  RE: Community Conversations - 8/26/2024 - Behavioral and Medical Impacts of Spay and Neuter

    Posted 08-26-2024 04:22 PM

    Unanswered question from the chat:

    "Does behavior S& N resolve the problem? Is the data robust?  Thanks." - @Julielani Chang



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    Maddie's Pet Forum Admin
    Maddie's Fund
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    Original Message


  • 7.  RE: Community Conversations - 8/26/2024 - Behavioral and Medical Impacts of Spay and Neuter

    Posted 08-28-2024 01:44 PM

    Hi @Julielani Chang,

    Great question.  Science tell us that if the primary goal is to prevent on reproduction, we should be focus on several things such as: females (because one male can impregnate many females, spaying females is more important) and s/n 70-80% of the population in our target community to reach a steady state.

    If you read Urfer's desexing dogs paper  they talk about the lack of research showing that there isn't enough evidence to confidently say that efforts to s/n  companion and shelter dogs has an effect on population size.  Success has been demonstrated in free-roaming populations.

    Having said that, my personal view is that s/n programs HAVE had an effect because i feel that the reason many of us say we're seeing more puppies and kittens these days is because of the reduction in s/n during covid. But that's just a thought and not backed by any research! 



    ------------------------------
    Sheila Segurson, DVM, DACVB
    Board Certified Veterinary Behaviorist
    Director of Community Solutions
    Maddie's Fund
    Pleasanton CA
    9258608284
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 8.  RE: Community Conversations - 8/26/2024 - Behavioral and Medical Impacts of Spay and Neuter

    Posted 08-28-2024 10:24 PM

    Dr. Segurson, Thank you for your response. I agree that spaying and neutering are vital for population control, and we're still feeling the effects of disruptions during COVID-19. I'm curious about your perspective on a related issue: How do you balance the benefits of population control through spaying/neutering with the potential for increased aggression and anxiety in some animals? I understand this might be a complex topic with varying viewpoints, so I'd appreciate hearing your thoughts on it.



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    Julielani Chang
    The Life of Kai: Compassion Connections Inc.
    Davis CA
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    Original Message


  • 9.  RE: Community Conversations - 8/26/2024 - Behavioral and Medical Impacts of Spay and Neuter

    Posted 09-09-2024 12:09 PM

    Hi @Julielani Chang,

     THIS is the super tough question - how to balance the benefits of population control with the potential for increased aggression and anxiety in some animals.

    Yes, it's a super complex topics, but since you've asked i'll share my opinion.  In both situations, we're talking about potential harm.   If we don't spay/neuter there is potentially new animals brought in the world.  I have a 3 year old dog who isn't spayed but i'm not allowing her to be bred, and that's why it's 'potential'. It depends where the animal lives, whether they're allowed to roam, and how closely the animal is monitored while they're in heat.  For dogs who go into heat twice per year, that's about ten days of risk per year. For cats who are induced ovulators and go into heat more frequently, that's many more days.  It's 'only' ten days, but the risk is significant.   Intact male dogs can smell a female dog from far away, and will often go to great lengths to access that female.  

    But what about the risk of potential aggression and anxiety in dogs?  It's also a potential risk. Dogs who are spayed/neutered are at higher risk for certain behaviors (like aggressive behavior toward strangers).  With this 'potential', we don't know whether that increased likelihood of behavior problems is because the dog was neutered or because of some other reason (one example of a potential reason would be people who spay/neuter also don't socialize their dogs adequately because their veterinarians tell them that the dog can't walk outdoors until they're 4 months old). That other reason might be the ACTUAL cause of the increased in behavior problems. 

    When we live in a community where lots of animals are being killed in shelters,  spay/neuter is the appropriate choice IMO. Until we have more information about why more neutered animals have behavior problems,  when we can't be certain that a pet owner is going to prevent breeding, the appropriate choice is to spay/neuter because we know a lot more about the consequences of not preventing breeding  than we do about the association between spay/neuter and behavior concerns.

    Having said all that, i have deep concerns about why most of us feel that we're seeing more dogs with behavior concerns and also more severe behavior concerns.  We don't have research, but I have lots of hypotheses regarding why this is happening.  Some of my hypotheses are:  the stressful/painful procedure (and not removing gonads), inadequate socialization, puppies learning from their undersocialized mothers which could increase potential bhrs like aggression to strangers,   less than ideal breeding (breeding for physical appearance or sport rather than for being a good family dog; puppy mills), to name a few.  Not to mention that many of our dogs live less social lives (on a day to day basis) than in the past, but then we expect them to be social when we have a party.    There's also a possibility that owners of intact dogs  (much smaller population than spay/neutered dogs) who completed these surveys keep their dogs differently than people who spay/neuter, and that's the cause of the results. 

    I feel that many of these other factors are likely bigger reasons why we feel we're seeing more behavior. So, i focus on NOT keeping puppies in shelters and educating shelters and pet people about the importance of socializing puppies and HOW to socialize them. I also focus on  educating pet people about trauma and it's impact,  the importance of creating positive experiences and preventing negative experiences for their dogs, as well as avoiding training methods (that cause trauma). 

    Having said all this, personally i fought hard to not spay my GSD mix until she was two (had a super hard time getting the org i adopted her from to agree to it) and have a 3 year old dog who isn't spayed. She's my COVID pup who has behavior concerns, and i'm not spaying her yet,  just in case spaying her makes her behavior worse and i know i can prevent her from being bred.  We KNOW that our hormones impact our health and behavior, so it's not out of the question that removing hormones has a behavioral impact. 

    I'd love to hear what you think! 

    Sheila



    ------------------------------
    Sheila Segurson, DVM, DACVB
    Board Certified Veterinary Behaviorist
    Director of Community Solutions
    Maddie's Fund
    Pleasanton CA
    9258608284
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 10.  RE: Community Conversations - 8/26/2024 - Behavioral and Medical Impacts of Spay and Neuter

    Posted 09-09-2024 05:09 PM

    Hi Sheila,

    Thank you so much for taking the time to respond to my question. I truly appreciate your insight and thoughtfulness, and I can relate to your struggle. We know that spaying and neutering are effective for population control, but when it comes to their impact on behavior, the issue is more complex due to the many contributing factors.

    I tend to agree with you. My first two black labs weren't neutered until they were three, and I adopted my current boy from a high-kill shelter 12 years ago-he was neutered at 6 months.  He is tall and lanky and doesn't seem as confident as the labs that I raised from puppyhood, but there are so many factors in his first six months of life that I'll never know about, any of which could have shaped his temperament. His noise sensitivity didn't help either. Now that he's a senior and his hearing is failing, it has eased his sensitivity a bit.

    As a trainer who primarily works with large, fearful dogs-many of whom were neutered or spayed early in life-I've seen how challenging rehabilitation can be. It takes a lot of work and time from the guardians, but it's possible. In my experience, changing the guardians' mindset and teaching them coping strategies play an even more crucial role in the rehabilitation process than the dog's history itself.



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    Julielani Chang
    The Life of Kai: Compassion Connections Inc.
    Davis CA
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    Original Message


  • 11.  RE: Community Conversations - 8/26/2024 - Behavioral and Medical Impacts of Spay and Neuter

    Posted 09-09-2024 05:33 PM

    Hi Julielani,

    My early age spay neuter dog also had noise sensitivity (and neophobia) and also benefited greatly from losing his hearing!

    And YES, because behavior modification can be so incredibly challenging, it's why prevention AND  helping people to understand the dog they have (vs the dog they wish they had) is so important!!

    Sheila



    ------------------------------
    Sheila Segurson, DVM, DACVB
    Board Certified Veterinary Behaviorist
    Director of Community Solutions
    Maddie's Fund
    Pleasanton CA
    9258608284
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 12.  RE: Community Conversations - 8/26/2024 - Behavioral and Medical Impacts of Spay and Neuter

    Posted 09-10-2024 01:07 PM

    Sheila,

    Thank you for the thoughtful and informational response. 

    While I do think we need more studies on early spay/neuter, I do think that at shelters are options are limited.  It's weighing out the benefits of early spay/neuter as it relates to pet overpopulation.  My dogs are from the shelter or rescues but if I had a puppy, I would wait longer to spay/neuter as I do see the benefits and it makes sense to me.

    Here in WI, I (and other professionals including certified behavior consultants and veterinarians I work with) seem to all be saying we are seeing more behavioral issues than ever before.  Why?  I don't think there is one reason or any easy answer.  I have a couple thoughts –  

    AMAZON😊 One is we live in a society where people can get Amazon delivered TODAY so often we want the "quick" fix and if it we can't get that we return the item.   

    BREEDING We have dogs that come from mills, backyard breeders and other less that ideal situations so we have genetics and early learning that can have a huge impact on the adult personality.  Most people are unaware the huge impact genetics, epigenetics and the parenting of mom have on their dog as an adult.

     TRAUMA Layer on top of that we have transport, multiple stays at shelters, taken from mom/litter too y young and more all during early learning when the brain is like a sponge for learning what is safe, unsafe and neutral in their world. I see so many dogs that have truly experienced trauma and their guardians don't realize it. 

    SOCIALIZATION Next we have a lack of understanding of what socialization is and either missed socialization windows or sometimes OVER socialization with the adopter that takes the dog to soccer games, daycare, dog parks and the bars from early on all in the name of "socialization"! 

    BREED Then we have often a complete mismatch of adopters and breed or research so people pick the border collie based on looks not doing the research to learn they need a LOT of stimulation and can have a need to control movement and can be cautious of strangers so we are fitting the square peg into the round hole at times. 

    EXPECTATIONS Then there is the expectation that dogs should love all dogs and people, go to daycare and the bar and more.  We put a LOT of expectations on another species with very different rules than ours.  We sometimes ask more out of them than we would our partners, children, etc..

    TRAINING METHODS I could go on and on about this one but we bring another species into our world and then "teach" them by telling them what NOT to do and shocking them and more.  Most of my aggression cases have been on shock collars, prongs and more! It's heartbreaking the lack of understanding and regulation of the training world for our "best friends"☹!

    ANXIETY Lastly and most importantly I think our current mental health crisis in this country is having an impact on our dogs.  Anxiety is at an all time high with people and even teens in our society.  I do believe (and there are some pretty compelling studies) that dogs mirror behavior and are impacted by our stress. 

    So I think the key is education on body language, what is socialization, humane training methods, understanding stress/anxiety/trauma, and addressing our own stress and anxiety to create a more humane world for our companions.  Then we can begin to have other conversations.

    Carol Sumbry

    Certified Behavior Consultant, Certified Professional Dog Trainer, Trauma Informed Professional - Canine



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    Carol Sumbry
    Elmbrook Humane Society
    WI
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    Original Message


  • 13.  RE: Community Conversations - 8/26/2024 - Behavioral and Medical Impacts of Spay and Neuter

    Posted 08-26-2024 04:24 PM

    Unanswered question from the chat:


    "There seems to be no mention of risk of infection from surgery. Is it so small it's not noted?" - @Ken Hopkins



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    Maddie's Pet Forum Admin
    Maddie's Fund
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    Original Message


  • 14.  RE: Community Conversations - 8/26/2024 - Behavioral and Medical Impacts of Spay and Neuter

    Posted 08-28-2024 01:50 PM

    Hi @Ken Hopkins,

    Thanks for your question.  There was a lot i didn't mention because there was a lot to cover and not enough time.  Yes, you are correct that one of the risks of spay/neuter are anesthetic and surgery complications. Potential surgical complications include things like bleeding, surgical site opening up post surgery, and infection.    there are also other risks (correlations) such as an increased risk of hypothyroidism in s/n dogs which i don't think i mentioned during the presentation?



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    Sheila Segurson, DVM, DACVB
    Board Certified Veterinary Behaviorist
    Director of Community Solutions
    Maddie's Fund
    Pleasanton CA
    9258608284
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 15.  RE: Community Conversations - 8/26/2024 - Behavioral and Medical Impacts of Spay and Neuter

    Posted 08-26-2024 04:51 PM
      |   view attached

    Thanks to the 161+ people and paws who joined us on today's Community Conversations call! The recording is now available to watch on-demand. Below you'll find a recap of today's call and the resources shared. 

    Call Recap

    • Welcome from hosts
      • @Raye Taylor, CEO/CMO, Taylor Veterinary Services; Vice President, Minnesota Board of Veterinary Medicine
      • @Donell Randolph, Community Programs Coordinator, Oakland Animal Services

    • Question of the Day: Today is International Dog Day.  If Dog Day turned into a national holiday. What activity would you do with your pet to celebrate??
      • "Go hiking!" – Steph Kendrick
      • "Beach day!" - Lianne Hodgson
      • "I'd take them to the beach in San Francisco!" – Dr. Sheila Segurson
      • "Make a dog park date!" – Kirsten vantwoud
      • "Rent a large sniffspot and let my dogs run crazy" - Alexsey Dobberstine
      • "Lake day!" - Joyce Nesselhauf
      • "Car ride to get ice cream." – Dee Cummins
      • "Get out of the desert heat and take the girls to Mt Lemmon for a great hike." – Mary Flores
      • "Pawbenders" - Tammy Anckner
      • "Play Chuck It in our very own dog park" - Deanna Nash
      • "Since every day is "dog day" in my house I would volunteer at our shelter an extra day to make it dog day for more pups there!!" - Susan Murphy
      • "I will invite some friends on dog pawty!" - Krasi Mircheva
      •  "I would do whatever Reggie wanted to do, which would include a lot of sofa cuddling and visiting with his best friends." – Sharon Fletcher
      • "EVERY DAY is National Dog Day as far as my doggies are concerned!  Just as a quick note, K9 Battle Buddies was voted as Liberty County's Favorite Non-Profit for 2024!" – Debra DeVries 

    • Highlights from the Chat
      • "Chat gpt is famously not accurate. It would be nice if that chart used actual scientific data – Maria S. 
      • "Dr. S is incredibly fastidious in checking her data. I have no doubt that she checked each number twice!" – Kelly Duer
      • "Gotta love the Rotties!" – Irene Chansawang
      • "I would like to know how large the sample size was for each breed. Just curious how likely the chart is to be accurate." – Lisa Pearce
      • "I have questions about studies that are 20 years old because of changes in food, vaccines, medications, and environment. There's a lot of potential impact that could change the results." - Penny Leisch 
      • "No studies on cats?" – Donna Miller  
      • "Dr. S. at the beginning said its pretty much universally accepted that felines should be fixed by five" – Ursula Hendel
      • "This presentation focuses on dogs, mostly because it appears to be more complicated...generally the consensus on cats is that it does not appear to be significantly different in the way it is with dogs, but would be a great future conversation.." – Raye Taylor 
      • "It is interesting, thank you. But remains confusing." – Lisa Pearce
      • "In lieu of using the death penalty as birth control, let's keep on spaying and neutering, especially pre-adoption, as mentioned." – Julie Jacobson
      • "Thank you so much this was such great information and was a great presentation - learned so much!" – Beth, Matchdog Rescue
      • "Thank you, Dr. S, for a great topic deserving of more research." - julielani chang
      • "Spay and Neuter beats euthanasia every time."- Debra DeVries
      • "Thank you @Sheila Segurson and our amazing hosts 🙂 !" – Shonyae Johnson
      • "We offer a Foster to Adopt where the adopters can take the animal home and we schedule to come in and spay/neuter" – Debra Leckrone 
      • "This was so informative.  Thank you so much!"- Suny Simon
      • "Instead of tripping over spay/neuter and gonadectomy, neuter refers to both genders. Just say NEUTER!" – Donna Miller
      • "Look at the Netherlands. They don't have a dog problem. There isn't a behavior issue. Adopt and fine those that don't!" – heather hoffman
      • "Spay/neuter is the ideal situation before leaving the shelter.  It just not realistic always for some large shelters.  We had over 800+ adoptions last month and many went home as foster to adopt.  They return a couple of weeks later for spay/neuter surgery.    It is not about money/resources.  It is about spay/neuter capacity." – Annette Bedsworth
      • "Excellent conversation and information.  Thank you!" – Kathy Duncan



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    Sheila Kouhkan
    Senior Education Specialist
    Maddie's Fund
    CA
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    Original Message


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