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Risk Assessment Discussion (Camp Maddie: Behavior Edition Day 1)

  • 1.  Risk Assessment Discussion (Camp Maddie: Behavior Edition Day 1)

    Posted 03-17-2024 05:45 AM

    When animals are surrendered to us with a history of aggressive behavior (e.g., growling, snapping, biting), risk assessment is an important part of our work. Veterinary behaviorists have expertise in this topic, as their day to day work often involves assessing dogs and working with clients to reduce risk and improve welfare. 

    Join us on Wednesday, March 20 at 9 am PT/ 12 pm ET when we'll hear from Dr. Chris Pachel (@Chris Pachel), a board-certified veterinary behaviorist who is the owner and lead clinician at the Animal Behavior Clinic in Portland, Oregon. Dr. Pachel is a speaker who is sought out internationally, so we're happy to offer our community the opportunity to hear him speak for FREE about risk assessment. 

    Watch the Maddie Camp promo video of Dr. Chris Pachel here

    Camp Maddie: Behavior Edition happens on March 20 and April 3 from 9a – 1p/PT, 12p – 4p ET.  Learn more here.

    Please use this thread to discuss and ask questions about this topic now and after the Camp Maddie event.


    #Behavior,TrainingandEnrichment

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    Sheila Segurson, DVM, DACVB
    Board Certified Veterinary Behaviorist
    Director of Community Solutions
    Maddie's Fund
    Pleasanton CA
    9258608284
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Risk Assessment Discussion (Camp Maddie: Behavior Edition Day 1)

    Posted 03-18-2024 09:09 AM

    Risk assessments form such an important part of Behaviour modification and more so in the rehoming environment . Looking forward to hearing what Dr pachel brings to the table with this talk 



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    Tom Candy
    behaviour and welfare trustee
    Hope Rescue
    VI
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  • 3.  RE: Risk Assessment Discussion (Camp Maddie: Behavior Edition Day 1)

    Posted 03-20-2024 11:09 AM

    Thanks for coming, Tom! Great to see you here! 



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    Chris Pachel
    Veterinary Behaviorist
    Instinct Dog Behavior and Training Portland
    OR
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  • 4.  RE: Risk Assessment Discussion (Camp Maddie: Behavior Edition Day 1)

    Posted 03-20-2024 04:23 PM

    Amazing talk, as always =]



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    Tom Candy
    behaviour and welfare trustee
    Hope Rescue
    VI
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  • 5.  RE: Risk Assessment Discussion (Camp Maddie: Behavior Edition Day 1)

    Posted 03-20-2024 10:08 AM

    Hi! Thanks for hosting this forum. I had 2 questions for Dr. Pachel. The first is how does being immunocompromised impact "chaos" in the home? I understand the other things on the list, but had not heard about this. 2. Regarding the need for objective data, do you ever ask guardians (or shelters) to collect any simple data in real time or rely on their memories? 



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    Joanna Cordry
    Class Instructor
    Every Dog Behavior and Trianing
    TX
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  • 6.  RE: Risk Assessment Discussion (Camp Maddie: Behavior Edition Day 1)

    Posted 03-20-2024 11:10 AM
    1. Immunocompromise was listed under "targets" rather than "chaos" - hope that helps clarify!
    2. Absolutely! What and how we collect that data can vary from one situation to the next, but objective data is so important! 


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    Chris Pachel
    Veterinary Behaviorist
    Instinct Dog Behavior and Training Portland
    OR
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  • 7.  RE: Risk Assessment Discussion (Camp Maddie: Behavior Edition Day 1)

    Posted 03-20-2024 04:21 PM

    Immune compromised hold a bigger risk due to higher potential of infection following a bite incident or injury 



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    Tom Candy
    behaviour and welfare trustee
    Hope Rescue
    VI
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  • 8.  RE: Risk Assessment Discussion (Camp Maddie: Behavior Edition Day 1)

    Posted 03-20-2024 10:12 AM

    Unanswered question from the live chat:

    "Can you recommend a simple behavior intake questionnaire or tool that tends to elicit helpful information from an owner or foster parent?"



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    Maddie's University
    Maddie's Fund
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  • 9.  RE: Risk Assessment Discussion (Camp Maddie: Behavior Edition Day 1)

    Posted 03-20-2024 10:14 AM

    Unanswered question from the chat:

    "How do we get Animal Control & PD to understand the 'value, need & impact' in getting detailed, comprehensive bite reports? ...whether animal is picked up or surrendered?  Is there a form template available?"



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    Maddie's University
    Maddie's Fund
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  • 10.  RE: Risk Assessment Discussion (Camp Maddie: Behavior Edition Day 1)

    Posted 03-20-2024 10:15 AM

    Question from the chat:

    "Some of the 'ladder jumpers' posing the greatest safety threats that I've seen as a shelter vet were dogs trained with shock collars by 'professional' dog trainers. How does this training history impact your risk assessment? Some animal welfare orgs use these same tools as a 'last resort' -in your opinion, is there ever a justification for animal welfare orgs to use these tools in the name of lifesaving?"



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    Maddie's University
    Maddie's Fund
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  • 11.  RE: Risk Assessment Discussion (Camp Maddie: Behavior Edition Day 1)

    Posted 03-22-2024 12:52 PM

    There's a lot to unpack here! :)  Punishment is one factor that can influence the "rung jumping" pattern that I mentioned in the talk, but it's not the only one, and not all dogs trained with punishment exhibit this pattern. And, to further complicate matters, many of the dogs we evaluate in the shelter come in without information about their training history, so I tend to base my assessment on the observable behavior rather than reports of what training they may or may not have received. And, while I recognize that the "last resort" argument is often used as a justification for using punishment-based training strategies or tools, I'm typically able to identify methods with less risk that haven't been explored or have been implemented incorrectly, so the "last resort" argument doesn't typically hold up. 



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    Chris Pachel
    Veterinary Behaviorist
    Instinct Dog Behavior and Training Portland
    OR
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  • 12.  RE: Risk Assessment Discussion (Camp Maddie: Behavior Edition Day 1)

    Posted 03-20-2024 10:18 AM

    Question from the chat:

    "Is there any risk of labeling a bite as a certain level (say, low) then there is a bite to public and the shelter is potentially held liable or gets bad PR?  Is it almost better to not label or just give the information without a prognosis for future issues?"



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    Maddie's University
    Maddie's Fund
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  • 13.  RE: Risk Assessment Discussion (Camp Maddie: Behavior Edition Day 1)

    Posted 03-22-2024 12:54 PM

    There is a risk in everything we do or don't do, isn't there? If we have information that allows us to characterize a bite, I'm typically going to label it as accurately as I can while recognizing that many other factors influence safety and overall risk. Liability is absolutely something that needs to be considered! 



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    Chris Pachel
    Veterinary Behaviorist
    Instinct Dog Behavior and Training Portland
    OR
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  • 14.  RE: Risk Assessment Discussion (Camp Maddie: Behavior Edition Day 1)

    Posted 03-20-2024 10:20 AM

    Question from the chat:

    "Are you using 'head threat' for something like muzzle punching?"



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    Maddie's University
    Maddie's Fund
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  • 15.  RE: Risk Assessment Discussion (Camp Maddie: Behavior Edition Day 1)

    Posted 03-20-2024 11:08 AM

    Head threat in this context is an intentional head movement but without physical contact (so not synonymous with a muzzle punch). 



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    Chris Pachel
    Veterinary Behaviorist
    Instinct Dog Behavior and Training Portland
    OR
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  • 16.  RE: Risk Assessment Discussion (Camp Maddie: Behavior Edition Day 1)

    Posted 03-20-2024 10:24 AM

    Question from the chat:

    "Why would we treat adopters any different than pet owners in terms of providing animal history and information and letting people decide for themselves what they can handle? Why not be facilitators and educators without telling people what is right for their lives or judging what other people can and cannot handle?"



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    Maddie's University
    Maddie's Fund
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  • 17.  RE: Risk Assessment Discussion (Camp Maddie: Behavior Edition Day 1)

    Posted 03-22-2024 12:56 PM

    I agree with you! Where the conversation often is challenging is when we're trying to decide options for an animal before a potential adopter has identified themself as such, and it can be difficult to know when/if an appropriate home will become available. I don't want to limit a dog's possibility of being adopted, while also recognizing the more "red flags" or safety risks we identify, the harder it may be to find a successful adoptive placement. 



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    Chris Pachel
    Veterinary Behaviorist
    Instinct Dog Behavior and Training Portland
    OR
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  • 18.  RE: Risk Assessment Discussion (Camp Maddie: Behavior Edition Day 1)

    Posted 03-20-2024 10:25 AM

    Question from the chat:

    "When history is unavailable to determine possible antecedents, what would be the most helpful factor in making assessment?  Have you encountered 'aggression' in deaf and/or blind dogs? What do you recommend for these dogs?"



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    Maddie's University
    Maddie's Fund
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  • 19.  RE: Risk Assessment Discussion (Camp Maddie: Behavior Edition Day 1)

    Posted 03-20-2024 10:26 AM

    Question from the chat:

    "How do you handle clients that you feel are very unsafe and you know there is no environment the animal can be safe in and decide to not euthanize. Do you follow through with a training plan or are there times when you feel the liability is too great and won't work with them?"



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    Maddie's University
    Maddie's Fund
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  • 20.  RE: Risk Assessment Discussion (Camp Maddie: Behavior Edition Day 1)

    Posted 03-20-2024 10:27 AM

    Question from the chat:

    "Resource guarding vs aggression difference? can either be completely eliminated?"



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    Maddie's University
    Maddie's Fund
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  • 21.  RE: Risk Assessment Discussion (Camp Maddie: Behavior Edition Day 1)

    Posted 03-22-2024 12:59 PM

    Both RG and other types of aggression can be completely "normal" elements of canine communication, so I rarely set the benchmark as "eliminated". We can usually lessen the risk by reducing the frequency and/or intensity of aggressive behavior, but I wouldn't use words such as "cure" in the expectations. 



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    Chris Pachel
    Veterinary Behaviorist
    Instinct Dog Behavior and Training Portland
    OR
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  • 22.  RE: Risk Assessment Discussion (Camp Maddie: Behavior Edition Day 1)

    Posted 03-20-2024 10:27 AM

    Question from the chat:

    "Is there another recommendation for behavior evals other than SAFER?"



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    Maddie's University
    Maddie's Fund
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  • 23.  RE: Risk Assessment Discussion (Camp Maddie: Behavior Edition Day 1)

    Posted 03-25-2024 11:42 AM

    Am I missing the link for those that registered but missed the webinar? I've been watching for an email but haven't seen one. Just an invite to join the next one in April.



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    Sarah Hoadley
    Paws in Middle Georgia Animal Rescue
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  • 24.  RE: Risk Assessment Discussion (Camp Maddie: Behavior Edition Day 1)

    Posted 03-25-2024 12:02 PM

    Hi @Sarah Hoadley The session recordings for Camp Maddie: Behavior Edition Day 1 on 3/20  will be available within the week. An email will be sent to all who registered. Thank you!



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    Thank you all for all you do!

    Amber Freiwald
    Maddie's Fund
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  • 25.  RE: Risk Assessment Discussion (Camp Maddie: Behavior Edition Day 1)

    Posted 03-25-2024 12:03 PM

    Hi Sarah,

    The recordings will be available within two weeks of the event. We'll share links once they're available!

    Sheila



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    Sheila Segurson, DVM, DACVB
    Board Certified Veterinary Behaviorist
    Director of Community Solutions
    Maddie's Fund
    Pleasanton CA
    9258608284
    ------------------------------



  • 26.  RE: Risk Assessment Discussion (Camp Maddie: Behavior Edition Day 1)

    Posted 16 days ago

    Dear Dr Pachel,

    Thank you for such an informative and useful webinar. It has also come at a very relevant time for us, as we've had a staff get bitten by a dog at one of our shelters.

    For dogs who have no known behavioural history (i.e. abandoned), would your risk assessment be based heavily on observations of its body language and behaviour at the shelter? As every dog has its own triggers, is the only way then to wait for the triggering situations to present themselves before we know what triggers it? How can we safely do so?

    On a separate note, what are your views on formal behaviour assessments? It has been suggested in some studies that formal behaviour assessments are not predictive of how an animal will behave in the future and it has been compared to "flipping a coin".  Given that the industry as a whole is moving away from provocative testing as well, are there any other methods we can use to give us an indication if an animal is suitable for behaviour rehabilitation/rehoming?

    Thank you! I really enjoyed the talk



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    Ian Liang
    Veterinarian
    National Parks Board
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  • 27.  RE: Risk Assessment Discussion (Camp Maddie: Behavior Edition Day 1)

    Posted 16 days ago

    Interested in this question as well!



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    Lisa Kitchens
    Pet Central Helps!
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  • 28.  RE: Risk Assessment Discussion (Camp Maddie: Behavior Edition Day 1)

    Posted 14 days ago

    These are great questions! 

    For dogs who have no known behavioural history (i.e. abandoned), would your risk assessment be based heavily on observations of its body language and behaviour at the shelter? As every dog has its own triggers, is the only way then to wait for the triggering situations to present themselves before we know what triggers it? How can we safely do so?

    Yes, in a situation in which we don't have any history to go on, we're more limited in how we pull that risk assessment together. We can still assess the relative size of the animal, the predictability of behavior based on whatever observations we have been able to make, and we can discuss possible exposure based on potential adopters or suitable environments, but we won't have the information from the "incident history" portion of the assessment to inform our recommendations. 

    On a separate note, what are your views on formal behaviour assessments? It has been suggested in some studies that formal behaviour assessments are not predictive of how an animal will behave in the future and it has been compared to "flipping a coin".  Given that the industry as a whole is moving away from provocative testing as well, are there any other methods we can use to give us an indication if an animal is suitable for behaviour rehabilitation/rehoming?

    You're absolutely right that behavior assessments aren't foolproof by any means! Certain behaviors may occur in the shelter environment due to stress that are never observed in a home environment, and vice versa. I don't mind putting a pet through a standardized set of observations/situations, but I believe we have to be very careful about how much weight we put on those observations if we're unsure of their validity or reproducibility. 
    --
    Christopher Pachel (he/him/his)
    Co-Owner / Veterinary Behaviorist
    Instinct Dog Behavior & Training
    t: 971.358.8787
    e: chrispachel@instinctdogtraining.com 
    www.instinctdogtraining.com                                                  Facebook | Instagram 
    This message is confidential. It may also be privileged or otherwise protected by work product immunity or other legal rules. If you have received it by mistake, please let us know by e-mail reply and delete it from your system; you may not copy this message or disclose its contents to anyone without permission.







  • 29.  RE: Risk Assessment Discussion (Camp Maddie: Behavior Edition Day 1)

    Posted 3 days ago

    Thank you so much for the conference



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    Angie Medina
    Pet Sitter
    Peluditos LLC
    WA
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