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Hi everyone,
Here's responses to the Q&A we didn't have time to get to during the Socializing Puppies presentation. Really good questions and thoughtful answers from Dr. Overall so I encourage you to check these out!
Before I answer these, let me say that I think these – and the questions asked during the talk – are all great – very intuitive, caring and germane.
1. With regard to the scott/fuller research, wouldn't a dog in a lab act differently? It's not a normal or natural upbringing. What humane, non lab research has been done with dogs regarding socialization?
There is a lot to unpack here in this question.
Scott and Fuller did their work mostly in the 1960s. The US did not have the animal handling guidelines it has now for ANY lab animal, and much of what we know about the development of all species was funded by the US government then to create the first animal welfare guideline and use guidelines. We forget that developing such knowledge is costly in time and labor and that it did not always exist.
Also embedded in your question is the concept that laboratory and/or animal research is inhumane. This is an incorrect perception. Guidelines for research continue to advance as knowledge advances. Oddly, the US lags behind Canada, the UK, Australia, and all of Europe in animal care and welfare (and food safety) guidelines. However, even the US guidelines provide for kind, humane care and the individual who care for, examine, treat, and keep lab animals cleaned are all highly trained. Kennel attendants require certification in a number of areas. All animal care procedures – both a commercial research kennels and university/industry animal care facilities – are governed by oversight board of diverse composition that must follow the law and must provide for complaints and whistle blowers. Our systems are only as good as those who report abuse – which takes effort.
Certainly, research animal care facilities have guidelines that exceed those for commercial, purebred dog facilities (large scale AKC registered pups and expensive mixes), and the USDA oversight and enforcement, at its best, cannot match. How good the USDA inspection is and how public the results are depend on the administration's commitment to animal welfare and transparency.
Where we lack humane care guidelines completely is for pets, and I have seen horrible abuse and neglect, as has anyone doing rescue, animal warden, or shelter work.
When I gave the JP Scott memorial lecture I was very lucky to meet the still living members of the lab, so I spent 2 days asking questions. If I had to fault the group for one factor it would not be care…..it would be how controlled some of there experiments might not have been.
Most puppy cages where dogs were held for testing were home-made – chicken wire…..and under people's desks!! The complete set up – and bear in mind how people kept pet dogs at the time and still do now (in our recent puppy study a stunning number of these dogs were raised in barns, which is common – and legal – here and in almost every in the US if you live on a farm) is pictured in Scott and Fuller's text Genetics and Social Behavior of the Dog (original: Dog Behavior: The Genetic Basis).
I find your question about non-lab research and whether dogs would act differently both interesting and funny because I am constantly berated in the other direction. For our long-term and ongoing puppy study we used 'owned' puppies and brough them into the lab for standardized tests. We did not control for size, breed, source, or human experience, which makes for some complicated data. The research lab animal people here all want to know why I did not use Labrador retrievers and have them live under controlled conditions to understand underlying behavioral variation!!!
Simply, as I noted, there are NO studies that are comprehensive about any of the foci from Scott and Fuller's decades of studies. I have tried to get someone to fund a sensible set of replicates on pet dogs and even approached the AKC. In the Scandinavian countries there are breed clubs whose focus is canine breed improvement and health and they HAVE done a number of excellent behavioral studies and surveys but they have not replicated the developmental parts. There are a couple of studies that have looked at the development or early play or early fear in a few litters of a few breeds but they are small studies that do not represent Scott and Fuller's range. Our ongoing study was designed to ask what normal behavior looked like as dogs matured from 3-12 months (for testing) and 3-24 months (for questionnaires), and what emergent deviations from it look like (ie, non-normal and potentially problematic behaviors). No one has asked this question. We will have the data to ask whether specific classes of behaviors elicited during the cognitive tests predict later problems. But this is a small study – 37 dogs followed over 2 years (3 dropped out due to time constraints). We picked our tests from a large test battery and only used ones that we were sure would scale up to crowd-sourcing and evaluation of short videos. Once we know which tests are informative, if we have the funding, we will go the crowd sourcing route, but handling data is time consuming and so it is expensive. We will need funding to continue.
2. The tail wagging slide is fascinating. Are there much studies on the ancestral breeds? Behaviorally how are these breeds compare to non-ancestral breeds? Tx
There is some spotty info on Nordic breeds but not enough to answer any comparative questions. It's a shame. Scott and Fuller also looked at resting heart rates at different ages – again – changes across breeds – and heart rate recovery from a scare (more differences). It would be interesting to follow these changes across the first few years to see if there we differences in social interactions, problem solving behaviors or how people felt about such dogs. I have always wondered if you were a late wagger were people disappointed in you and what effect that could have.
3. Are there any suggested puppy food brands/formulas that have the recommended levels of omega fatty acids? Also, would you suggest the mother get that same food while pregnant and/or nursing?
Moms need enhanced diets – in calories, in digestible and high-quality protein, and possibly in vitamins depending on their history, when pregnant and nursing. Omega 3s are in many foods but only at high levels in any of the brain, joint, skin or immune related diets. There is no DHA/EPA recommended AAFCO level for adult dogs but for pups and kittens growth diets should contain 0.05% DHA + EPA on a dry matter basis or 10mg/100 kcal. A few puppy diets may exceed this. Then entire line of Nestle Purina Bright Minds (from OTC to GI diets to Neurocare have supplements including beta hydroxy butyrate that sucks up excitatory amino acids which can help many very arousable dogs. Usually we supplement with fish oil and use the anti-inflammatory/immune dose (50-220 mg/kg/day combined DHA & EPA or (120-310 mg/kg)0.75 (metabolism-based dose).
4. Do we still believe the pre-frontal cortex is fully formed at about 2 (even though still plastic!) years of aged?
The cortex can be fully formed – in the sense of all the parts and most of the connections being there – but still be remodeled. Given what we have learned from human imaging over adolescence and early adulthood….I think we have a way to go with dogs. As I said – I just – again – applied for funding for this but it is costly, time consuming, requires a team of expertise, and must start with a relatively small sample size. However, if we get that baseline population, our goal is to create a formula so that others can assess dogs but they are all evaluated the same way.
5. If a dog needs meds (for anxiety/fear) early in their life, do they generally need to be continued lifelong? In addition to environmental modifications/experiences.
This very much depends on whether the condition involves some level of genetic pathology (eg, even regulatory genes) where the molecular products needed are not produced without external stimulation.
It also depends on how damaged the dog is and for how long they were damaged. And as you note – experience, environmental and behavioral mod all play roles. Dogs can do really well weaned until something changes (the child goes to university, the people move) – and then we see that the anxiety was treated but the tendency remains.
Young pups may be off meds after social maturity. A dog who suffered from 6 years and cannot stop doing 1 kind of behavior without the meds is likely to need them for life.
However…..we can try to wean slowly and find out. Clients are often unwilling to do this for some very sane reasons:
1. They are worried there will be a recidivistic event and the dog will suffer.
2. They are worried the dog will become destabilized and we will not be able to recapture stability.
Meds are relatively inexpensive AND if clients do annual laboratory evaluation, the risks to long-term treatment are minimal. These meds are oddly 'safer' than most medications used for other things, so if they are well monitored, the risk, long-term is slim to none. Knowing that – many clients choose to stay the course.
6. Can you describe a range of ideal environmental exposures for six week old puppies?
Ah, great question. My wonderful Annie, whom I deliberately got from a breeder and for whom I waited – had a great breeder of working Aussies. Her breeder took a longer video of the entire crew for me every week starting at day 1 so that the vet students could learn from it……and there was Annie – leaving the scale < an hour after her birth. These videos did a great job of revealing the differences in dogs in the litter and 2 boys ended up being kept back from adoption at 9 weeks until ~ 12 weeks because the videos showed that they were uncertain. So – with a bit more work and exposure and confident older dogs – they blossomed. A month made a big difference for them.
So – video the exposure.
And then, what Annie's breeder did actually mimics what many working dog breeders (including Australian customs) do with their dogs, which follows.
Make the environment clean, safe, and complex. Add some safe toys and shapes and textures to the whelping box (here the worry is that pups cannot get stuck). As soon as they try to flee, make it possible for the pups to flee to a place with smells and tastes and texture that they can explore at their pace. Add in other animals (known, nice, safe, healthy, vaccinated) starting at 3 weeks. Help the stragglers by bringing their litter mates back to them. Start taking them to potty immediately after eating starting at 3 weeks (buckwheat pens are great). Stroke and massage daily. Once they start to be interested in people – introduce some (start at 5-6 weeks and make sure they are not all one sex, color, height, personality) if they are curious – help them (mini ladders, platforms, wagons, blocks, balls). Start taking them out at 5-6 weeks – Annie was a winter puppy and her breeder had them out in the snow and ice. If they fell, someone was there to catch them. And the pup who cried at the steps? You bring another pup back and you sit with them. If they still cannot do it, carry them over the hump – they'll get another chance….you get the idea. I send t-shirts that smell like me to pups I know I am adopting. If they need to be hospitalized, these go with them.
7. Thank you for an informative presentation on development which highlights the importance of "nurture" the first 4 months without minimizing the genome (nature). How effective is retroactive modification of behaviors especially fearfulness for those who did not receive proper stimuli at the appropriate stages? Thanks
Thanks for your kind words. The earlier dogs receive treatment (medication, diet, cognitive, behavior mod) for fear the better they do. I have every hope that Ladybug – who came to us at 11 months and was initially dx and treated by us at 6 months (although she erratically received the meds in the last month or 2) will be completely free of daily medication in a year or 2. If we leave anything at this rate, it may be the paroxetine, but he meds are already decrease in frequency or dosage by ½-2/3. She does not go to agility or regular training – but goes on walks and goes to the beach – does not go to daycare, and does not live in the city. She is allowed to avoid situations. I am certain that if these factors were not true for her she'd need more meds. Fear is not just about learning – it's about molecular changes.
8. I always adopt dogs from shelters. What is your advice for picking a neurotypical or temperamentally stable dog? at
If you are lucky, the shelter had the skill, time, money, talent, space, and other resources to get to know their dogs across time and a number of contexts. It's a big resource ask. But the commonalities that so many shelter groups note for stable dogs is that:
1. They are outgoing without being needy. They are happy to approach, but do so calmly. They may eye contact as an invitation. They may be wiggly but are polite. They don't hide, cling, or hang back. If they stay lying in their bed they likely make eye contact and wag.
2. Other dogs are calm around these dogs.
3. They have little stress diarrhea or gastritis.
4. They can self calm by focusing on a chew toy, et cetera. So rather than ramping them up, it's a treat.
5. If asked to do something – they can offer choices…..the response is not the same single, invariant response.
6. Frank signs of fear are absent, and if something does scare them (a loud noise), they are quick to recover.
9. Has anyone assembled similar data/information about cat behavior? I find your information fascinating.
Ah, also interesting. Again in a laboratory situation, Eileen Karsh (who died this past May well into her 90s) spent years at Temple University in Philadelphia looking at grandparental, parental, and offspring of lab-reared kittens and effects of various exposure. These papers are hard to find, but we used her test criteria to look at homeless kittens rescue by the PEI HS. This work, too, is part of my resident x grad student, Dr. Jenn Vernick's, thesis work and the first part of it is published and available to anyone: Vernick J, Martin C, Montelpare W, Dunham AE, Overall KL. Understanding the influence of early-life stressors on social interaction, telomere length, and hair cortisol concentration in homeless kittens. Animals. 2025 15(3):446; https://doi.org/10.3390/ani15030446
10. Hello - If a one year old dog (rescue) attacks a smaller dog (unprovoked) - what are the chances that the One year old dog will attack again.
This is a crystal ball question. We cannot know because we need to know the context in which it occurred. We also need to know what the word 'attacks' means, specifically. We need very refined descriptions (or videos) of the behaviors of those involved. Whether something seems unprovoked to us, may not mean it was unprovoked to the dog. We often miss behaviors that without cameras or knowing what to watch for are easily missed. We also forget that not all dogs like each other or need to like each other.
We DO have data from Utrecht in the Netherlands that shows that if dogs are attacked by another dog when they are young (less than a year), it increases the likelihood that they will fear and be aggressive to dogs themselves, and these dogs are over-represented in fatal attacks to other dogs.
So if your rescue had such a history, you now have some context in which to watch his behaviors with other dogs.
Original Message:
Sent: 05-08-2025 05:38 PM
From: Sheila Segurson (she/her)
Subject: Socializing Puppies w/ Dr. Karen Overall: May 2025 Maddie's Monthly Behavior Connection
Hi everyone,
With kittens and puppies arriving at many of our organizations in bucket loads, there's no better time to learn about puppy socialization.
Mark your calendars for Thursday, May 22 at noon PT/3 pm ET, where we'll be learning all about it with renowned veterinary behaviorist, Dr. @Karen Overall !
What do we mean when we recommend that puppies are 'socialized'? Is there a role for mom in this? What about the home or environment into which the dog is born? Are the recommendations the same for puppies adopted young and older pups? When should puppies be adopted? What about pups that have some early trauma or neglect? What can we fix and what can we prevent? This webcast will review each of these issues, identify factors to which we should pay more attention, and discuss when interventions may help and what those could be.
Working in animal welfare can be really tricky when it comes to socialization, because we have to weigh two very real risks: the risk of infectious diseases vs. the risk of behavior concerns down the road due to inadequate socialization. Don't miss this free webcast!
Learn more or sign up for Maddie's Monthly Behavior Connection.
About our speaker:
Dr. Karen L. Overall received her BA, MA and VMD degrees from the University of Pennsylvania and a PhD degree from the University of Wisconsin-Madison. She did her residency training in veterinary behavioural medicine at the University of Pennsylvania and is a Diplomate of the American College of Veterinary Behaviourists (DACVB). Dr. Overall is a Professor of Behavioural Medicine at Atlantic Veterinary College, UPEI where she created the clinical, didactic and research program which trains veterinary students, residents, and graduate students.
Dr. Overall lectures at meetings and veterinary schools world-wide and consults internationally with governments, NGOs and working dog and welfare organizations. She is the author of hundreds of scholarly publications, textbook chapters, commentaries, et cetera and the texts Clinical Behavioural Medicine for Small Animals (1997; Elsevier) and Manual of Clinical Behavioural Medicine for Dogs and Cats (2013; Elsevier) and of the DVD, Humane Behavioural Care for Dogs: Problem Prevention and Treatment (2013; Elsevier). She is the editor-in-chief for Journal of Veterinary Behaviour: Clinical Applications and Research (Elsevier).
Dr. Overall has been named the North American Veterinary Conference (NAVC) Small Animal Speaker of the Year and was named one of the The Bark's 100 Best and Brightest - Bark Magazine's list of the 100 most influential people in the dog world over the past 25 years.
Her research interests include psychopharmacological treatments of anxiety and new drug development, behavioural genetics of anxiety disorders, and effects of early trauma on the behavioural development and later behavioural pathology of kittens and puppies.
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Sheila Segurson, DVM, DACVB
Board Certified Veterinary Behaviorist
Director of Shelter Solutions
Maddie's Fund
Pleasanton CA
9258608284
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